CreamWare reloaded

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 1:30 pm

I beg to differ. The Luna originally sold for $250 at Washington Music Center then the price nearly doubled. Then that store stopped carrying them. Gee I wonder why? I would love to see CW prices drop. Raising the prices did not gain more profit for the Luna I am willing to bet.

On 2004-02-04 11:15, astroman wrote:

CWA's prices have been remarkably constant in comparison to that and long term customers were frequently offered 'specials'.
This is also a part of marketing and it is the right way to go if you rely on your customer base.

cheers, Tom

[ This Message was edited by: braincell on 2004-02-04 13:33 ]

virtualstudio · Post by **virtualstudio** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:55 pm

On 2004-02-04 13:30, braincell wrote:
I beg to differ. The Luna originally sold for $250 at Washington Music Center then the price nearly doubled.

I'm sure that was a mistake from the shop, they were never sold that cheep in Europe not even in Germany

virtualstudio · Post by **virtualstudio** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 3:18 pm

On 2004-02-04 13:30, braincell wrote:
I beg to differ. The Luna originally sold for $250 at Washington Music Center then the price nearly doubled.

I'm sure that was a mistake from the shop, they were never sold that cheep in Europe not even in Germany

Grok · Post by **Grok** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 3:30 pm

Ok, I add my last comment to this thread, trying to analyse the situation without funny "renaming" comments (my job is not to advertise, I don't pretend to have miraculous visions on a bright future of a "renamed" CW product).

I know only what I want, and I assume I'm not the only one to want that same thing.

It is pretty clear: I want "Fidelity at work". And I want the CW cards I allready bought to have this quality: professionalism.

So, there are things to fix with the cards and SFP. First would be a reliable behaviour with XP, hyperthreading and ACPI. It's time, now, Win98 is over. And a reliable 96 kHz behaviour.

Second would be ALSA drivers for Linux. SFP running together with Linux would be a tremendous thing, because of the ALSA low latency drivers, because the reliability of the Linux OS (remember: Hollywood uses Linux, and neither Windows nor Mac OSX, for pictures special FXes), because the clever use of the system ressources by Linux, and last but not least, because of the tremendous qualities of the last CW plugins. There is a place to take. If Creamware don't want or can't go in this way, then it's not my problem, I'll simply don't buy new CW products anymore.

It's not SFP that has put CW in insolvency: 30000 users. It's the Noah, that practically no one has bought, with good reasons. A huge price, a ridiculous USB 1.0 and no support for 96 kHz are parts of these good reasons. It was crazy to release a product that has inferior performances than the existing CW cards. How many money spent by CW on the Noah, without Noah sells to compensate this money? The only result is that we don't have SFP4. As we don't have a competitive TripleDAT. And the new "EasyCUT XP" thing is funny, I think it comes a little bit too late.

These 30000 users (how many are on Mac?): do you think they are going to buy a new great CW card like that and throw the cards they already have in the garbage can? Come on...What is reasonable to expect is that they will perhaps buy some new and exciting plugins, with the same sound quality than the Minimax, B-2003, SixString, Pro One, Prodissey, Vinco, Vectron. I bought them all. Because they are f... good!

If CW releases some really good plugins at 45€, and if 10 000 users buy it...450 000€ is not bad.

How can CW fidelize these currently captive 30000 users and make them buying new cards? They can, if they put on a policy that makes huge (I wrote: "huge", not a little 20%) prices reductions, for owners of an old CW card. If not... The market is full of extraordinary products, and some are simply free; I'm really not sure I'll buy a CW product again, because I allready have some serious CW plugins, and I'm tempted to look at what others manufacturers are able to do. I hope Creamware Audio will make enough clever moves to not let go 30000 users away.

Business is business...Please don't talk about loyalty, it's really foolish.

[ This Message was edited by: Grok on 2004-02-04 15:32 ]

interloper · Post by **interloper** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 4:30 pm

About pricing, marketing dictates that the company should charge a fair amount that the market will bear, but yet not significantly more (or less) than the competition.

Based upon what the competition offers, I think CWA is not far off. I'd like to see some current Analog Devices chips, and have those boards command a premium, while the 60 Mhz versions would come down in price. Compatibility between the two is a must, although this would seem to be a challenge if one board is "faster" than the other in the same machine.

From having worked in hardware development, this idea and a boxed version of the cards (not Noah) connected via USB 2.0 or Firewire, will be quite expensive to develop, so this may be long term.

Software, on the other hand, is much cheaper, development cycles are shorter, and problems can be corrected with future releases. If you have a faulty solder connection or a bad chip on a board, you've got to send it in to have it fixed. If you have a defect in many boards within the user base, this becomes a very costly thing to address.

coc999 · Post by **coc999** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 5:43 pm

Maybe i ll be a little ot , but mister Franck will maybe read my 4 cents.
------- Creamware turns around in a creamware world , can somebody tells me if there is a big soft plug company that devellops somethin for cw dsp system ? how can pros be interrested by a system where there is no plugs delivered by these companies ?
------An basic internal sequencer with easy integrated automation , fads , pans , filters etc...(digi , reason ...have that ) :
A computer zero like me have yet understand a protools and reason so why it looks too much hard to automate pulsar from a cube vst ?
Lot of softs are ready for osx , ok we are not the main stream for this card but mac users have money to spend , a company survive with money and money call money

I remember a post where everybody was happy about pulsar sounds used in "Gladiator" or somethin like that , why cw has not make it Shine with BIG letters on his site ? when you have awards show them !!!
Pro's need stability , and it seems that it is not yet solved to access to pro studios plateforms even if there is some studios who use the cw cards .
Look the pz problem solving forum and you will understand On your official site there no advice or advertisement about motherboards , hd , drivers , installation etc ...why a customer should pass hours on forums to ask help ? (for myself i thanks pz and not cw forums or hotline and certainly not shop vendors !)
But cw cards ROCKS

I can describe the case of one of my friend who has mastered records for electro music and he is a multi platinum mastering master (i am not mythomaniac) !! he has buy a pulsar i think 4 years ago only for the quality of the conversion ,and that guy has ears ! I could not explain in what moment he use it in his studio "chaining" but only that proves me that cw has his place in the pro world !! i ask him for a card he tells me "if you wanna pro sound for that price take a pulsar plus "
Since 2000 the world has changed , the drivers , the systems , and the ozone hole too

Franck if you do that firewire box where i could put my pulsar1 i will be a client . I love pulsar synths

But now i use my g3 mac and your card only for synths for the rest i use a laptop work with reason , recycle under osx and finishing the mixes on a digisystem because all that is rexfiles compatible and "bouceable" etc ...
Ps:i am not a develloper , i am not a big contributor of this community , i am not a great composer , i know nothing about computers it is boring to me but i like to create some sounds and i give 1500 dols for your p1+

and wanted to thank you because today my 2 vynils are played by 2000 dj's all around the world so at the end it is cool because cw synths participate to my adventure .

Post by **hubird** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 8:07 pm

congrats Sacha with the 2000, that's quite good in the scene!
You come in a good moment, I just wanted to post a big appeal to the macintosh users to use the opportunity here to let hear your voice.
Am I the only one who's worried about the delay in OSX support??
Comon guys, for once it's time to express your thoughts about it.
If Frank get's the impression that even the mac users don't bother, why would Creamware do?
I know most mac people (to call it like that...) like to work in the hidden, they have the patience of the minority

, but if you don't stand up now, we are doing stupid, and that's a different thing than 'beeing with stupid'.

In my opinion, talking about CW and the future, I'd say Creamware should take the mac platform very serious by develloping an OSX version as soon as possible.
This should be even a main goal for the company, despite indeed some resulting delay in further plugs and other soft instruments

First, I think that CW is obliged this to the existing mac community..
I can understand if this argument doesn't count so much to some of us or CW so much in the given circomstances

, but, knowing that Frank clearly stated to support mac in the future, you can't put a professional part of the CW community in the freezer.

Second and less moral, if CW will be able to get the OSX support done, say, around next summer, this will not only for sure lead to an immense free publicity in the leading pro music papers, from what will benefit the sellings, made by mac AND pc users.
But a Scope- OSX also must be seen as a subtle but great contribution to the overall image of the trademark Creamware Audio.
No one here needs to feel embarrased if I say that supporting mac-OSX is a pro argument in audio world, I think also in pc land.
It doesn't say mac is better than pc, it says supporting mac is a recommendation, specially OSX.
Allow me please just to link to this cry of the heart of Art Gillespy, the develloper of the Phatmatic Pro (skip my intro bullshit): [url=http://]http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=8642&forum=31[/url]
That's what I'm talking about, not that he has right in his motivation to restrict himself to mac (OSX), but how he talks about OSX...

So... I would like to plead here very seriously to get support for OSX as soon as possible and significant.
In concreto this means I'm asking for combining the devellopment at the hardware side (Firewire box or whatever solution) in time with that of the software side, support to OSX.
If you could combine that with a totally renewed and interactive website with clear presentations of the renamed cards and software, and lots of user mp3's, and also well timed ads in the papers, then you have something to leave behind and concentrate on nice pearls for the swines

To spend a few words to my pc friends here, who might think, hey Hubird, are you crazy, we want new stuff:
Devellopment for OSX would definitely lead to some delay in other devellopments, but speaking for myself, I'm quite content with what I have already.
I can use it till I die

SFP works great, even mastering tools are well covered.
Talking about delay we are speaking in terms of month's or possibly 3/4 year.
But at the very moment we and CW have to deal with the outlines of the next future.
I'm sure every develloper higly prefers making brilliant plugs etc., so I don't worry about that, they will come sooner as we might think

Speaking about the long term, I see OSX support as an investment in quality and in marketing, and not to forget: you know exactly what you will earn from it, every existing mac user will step over to OSX as soon as he financially can.
With a minimum of need for expensive support

So comon Frank

, be smart and go for it!

At least coz CWA one day or another has to face it, till then it will be a block at your leg (as we say

)
It could give a great jump to better results in the future.
Good luck anyway, Scope rules!

_________________
Let There Be Music!

[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2004-02-04 20:21 ]

[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2004-02-04 20:38 ]

samplaire · Post by **samplaire** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 8:57 pm

Hubird and coc999 both described the same way I think about Creamware OSX future. I'm a mac user, too. I would be very happy to use SFP in OSX as soon as possible because of many interesting midi/audio apps/tools available to OSX only and they would be a VERY good company for SFP.
If you ask us, Frank, about the new boards/boxes I would opt for a firewire/usb2 solution because of the fact it would be more flexible to use in a studio/live environments.

[ This Message was edited by: samplaire on 2004-02-04 20:59 ]

Mr Arkadin · Post by **Mr Arkadin** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 5:52 am

If you ask us, Frank, about the new boards/boxes I would opt for a firewire/usb2 solution because of the fact it would be more flexible to use in a studio/live environments.

i agree. It also means stupid companies can keep changing the PCI standards all they like and we can still use our SFP

Immanuel · Post by **Immanuel** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 8:16 am

On 2004-02-04 13:30, Spirit wrote:
And I'll ask for a third time whether the free release of the development software means you could develop synths on a PulsarII board ?

Your have been answered days ago by John Cooper

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 10:14 am

OK, stupid me, in the many similar named threads I didn't see the answer. So: yes or no ?

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 10:28 am

I know someone with a DP on his Pulsar1, so should be ok on a Pulsar2 too I guess

Of conditions to get the DP keys and software I'm not aware, not much has been officially announced about that (yet).

virtualstudio · Post by **virtualstudio** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 10:31 am

On 2004-02-04 20:07, hubird wrote:
.
But a Scope- OSX also must be seen as a subtle but great contribution to the overall image of the trademark Creamware Audio.
No one here needs to feel embarrased if I say that supporting mac-OSX is a pro argument in audio world, I think also in pc land.
It doesn't say mac is better than pc, it says supporting mac is a recommendation, specially OSX.

although I'm a PC user I'm with Hubird on this one. a PRO-audio system like CW should support OSX (THAT would make sence marketing wise)
Me, I can wait a bit longer for SFP4, this version 3.1 rocks anyway!!

Immanuel · Post by **Immanuel** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 11:20 am

Spirit:

This thread, page 6, YES.

I meant to direct you to the answer, but I forgot.

BingoTheClowno · Post by **BingoTheClowno** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 11:46 am

Second would be ALSA drivers for Linux. SFP running together with Linux would be a tremendous thing, because of the ALSA low latency drivers, because the reliability of the Linux OS (remember: Hollywood uses Linux, and neither Windows nor Mac OSX, for pictures special FXes), because the clever use of the system ressources by Linux, and last but not least, because of the tremendous qualities of the last CW plugins. There is a place to take. If Creamware don't want or can't go in this way, then it's not my problem, I'll simply don't buy new CW products anymore.

[ This Message was edited by: Grok on 2004-02-04 15:32 ]

What Linux release do you guys use/recomend for a dual Xeon system?

Post by **hubird** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 5:12 pm

thank you Virtualstudio!

menno · Post by **menno** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 5:45 pm

On 2004-02-05 11:46, BingoTheClowno wrote:
Second would be ALSA drivers for Linux. SFP running together with Linux would be a tremendous thing, because of the ALSA low latency drivers, because the reliability of the Linux OS (remember: Hollywood uses Linux, and neither Windows nor Mac OSX, for pictures special FXes), because the clever use of the system ressources by Linux, and last but not least, because of the tremendous qualities of the last CW plugins. There is a place to take. If Creamware don't want or can't go in this way, then it's not my problem, I'll simply don't buy new CW products anymore.

[ This Message was edited by: Grok on 2004-02-04 15:32 ]
What Linux release do you guys use/recomend for a dual Xeon system?

To be honest IMHO Linux is not quite ready for the mainstream music desktop user yet, without the user being either a techie or having a techie friend on hand to provide support. Linux is reliable once setup, but it is still too complicated to administer. It gets better every year though, so I would love to see SFP running on it

My favourite Linux distro is Debian, but it is not too easy for a newbie. For a newbie I think Suse is pretty good.

Cheers,
Menno

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 7:33 pm

On 2004-02-04 20:07, hubird wrote:
...So... I would like to plead here very seriously to get support for OSX as soon as possible and significant.
In concreto this means I'm asking for combining the devellopment at the hardware side (Firewire box or whatever solution) in time with that of the software side, support to OSX.
If you could combine that with a totally renewed and interactive website with clear presentations of the renamed cards and software, and lots of user mp3's, and also well timed ads in the papers, then you have something to leave behind and concentrate on nice pearls for the swines ...

I absolutely second this - hopefully Frankfurt fair reveals some details - just of the direction, not a readymade product yet

I've recently checked (only roughly) one or the other Mac product now under OSX, and infact some read pretty interesting.

On the other hand, if today a simple midi-only (no auduio) sequencer is considered a minimum 128 MB of memory, that wakes my old concerns contra any -uxish stuff

Something must be terribly wrong with them, an Atari (which I didn't like much, btw) could do that rock-solid in 512 KB or less.

OK, it's 2004 and I accept the facts - but take it seriously nevertheless:
if THAT is todays programming standard it is no wonder that a low level integration of a complex item such as a DSP board is more difficult than most of us can imagine.

cheers, Tom

dehuszar · Post by **dehuszar** » Fri Feb 06, 2004 2:06 am

I think that the OSX drivers are imperative. If OSX drivers were ready when I was laptop shopping, I probably would've gone home with a PowerBook instead of my Centrino.

As for Linux, I've said elsewhere (maybe here too) that Linux isn't a big leap from OSX as OSX is unix-based. It would be cool even if CWA were to just release some rough BETA Linux drivers and installer and let the OSS community have the option of fiddling with the software. Most Composers aren't Linux users, but a hell of a lot of Linux users are musicians. Hand a developed platform with polished tone generators, effects, mixers, and samplers to a community which has developed fantastic music workflow tools (but not so much on the sound generation/manipulation) and people will make the sequencers and audio editors tighter because there'll be more incentive for people use them.

Even if the driver interface isn't top notch, calling out to the OSS community and giving them some rough code in an open and friendly way and I think you'd be surprised at how much help you get. People are hungry in the OSS community to tinker with interesting code and hardware.

Especially if people are fighting to keep their CPU/PCI Buss in balance with their CW card, imagine throwing together a cheap Linux Box and syncing it to your Win/OSX box via ADAT or even an external Mixing Desk and some synth controllers?? Stable live machine anyone?

Well, obviously not immediately, but Linux is reknown for it's stability once you've gotten it working (and therefore stop f#$king with it --like most other OSes I suppose).

Sam

[ This Message was edited by: dehuszar on 2004-02-06 02:14 ]

lore · Post by **lore** » Fri Feb 06, 2004 10:02 am

hi everybody i'd like to say a few things :
As a mac user i really need to have osx drivers in order to upgrade my work quality i.e. upgrade from vst to sx ! and get all the power that my dual 1ghz processor can give. But before creamware releases sfp for osx they really need to be careful about mac support in each country.
I live in Belgium and overhere the main shop of Bruxelles selling creamware products, among others,was really unconfident about creamware on mac because of the complete lack of good support for the clients.
Most of the times they sent me people who needed help , and i was able to solve their problems only because there was a community like planet z who really tought me all i know.
I remeber that at the very beginnig (where a large and toughtful community like this didn't exist) i called a number here in benelux to have some support cause vst was crashing constantly and they answered me :"go logic audio, it works with pulsar"....
So, finally, i think that creamware should gain respect and faith from local shops also by assuring that the country reseller has a skilfull person which knows both platforms,mac and pc ,because it should be a shop which advises clients on what is good or bad and not viceversa.
Of course these are my personal thoughts and experiences