God is not great: How religion poisons everthing

Post by **garyb** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:44 pm

you can say anything. you don't have to prove it.
neither do i have to believe it.

the truth will always remain in the end in any case.

BingoTheClowno · Post by **BingoTheClowno** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:55 pm

garyb wrote:you can say anything. you don't have to prove it.
neither do i have to believe it.

the truth will always remain in the end in any case.

What truth? What end? You're not talking about that armageddon/rapture lunacy now, are you?

Post by **garyb** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:22 pm

small mind.
the end is unseeable. our point of veiw is limited. small. the argument is entertaining, but meaningless.

BingoTheClowno · Post by **BingoTheClowno** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:31 pm

You sound like a prophet.

Post by **garyb** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:54 pm

5 or 10?

BingoTheClowno · Post by **BingoTheClowno** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:38 am

So then your faith is based on a complete fallacy?
How the fuck can you claim that god said this and that, and did such and such things if you don't have a proof that it exists?

One needs more than the logical and/or the deterministic probe to reality in order to access that field of perception.

What would those be? Ghosts detectors?

manfriday · Post by **manfriday** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:13 am

perhaps you need to learn what faith is.
Maybe wiki has an entry for it.

BingoTheClowno · Post by **BingoTheClowno** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:23 am

manfriday wrote:perhaps you need to learn what faith is.
Maybe wiki has an entry for it.

If faith is your "deterministic probe to reality" you're in big trouble.
Why don't you jump off a cliff with the faith that you can fly?

BingoTheClowno · Post by **BingoTheClowno** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:03 am

stardust wrote:Bingo, you dont need to bend yourself to that kind of 'seeing more than only the material'.
It is ok to have a rationalistic perception only, as long as you dont insist that that is the only way.

There might be even many 'believers' that deceive themselves and see things that are only a product of their willing fantasy.
Still that does not exclude a transcendental way of world view.

Think about the situation that you would have eyes to see and around you are blind people.
The blinds would say, that reality is what you feel and hear.
This seeing and colors and light is all fantasy and cannot be proven.

Maybe there are also some blinds that pretend to see and talk about colors they have never seen
Still there might be some that do see.
And faith is the access to those things when you dont see yet.

Ok this is just and analogon and will not completely fit, but it gives you an impression what these execrable people speak about.

And you don't have to make this transcendental crap your credo and imbue millions of children with the same crap claiming it is the absolute truth of this earth. Unscrupulous charlatans!
So if a blind never saw colors, why does he have to invent them?
Or are you claiming that only select few are the "holders of the divine secret" and the rest don't see the "light" yet? This would be pure charlatanic manipulation.

BingoTheClowno · Post by **BingoTheClowno** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 8:03 am

stardust wrote: You are angry again.
but it seems you are angry about the right thing.
When there should be people of any kind (-isms) that know that they are wrong, have a bad intent like manipulation, dragooning, mental slavery - whatever - this is morally wrong.
This is men's work then.

I don't understand, should I be happy or something at this charlatanry?

Post by **garyb** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 10:03 am

no, but what of che "charlatanry" of your own perception? human perception is easily proven as false. there's even art called "tromp l'oiel". this points to the faultiness of your senses. dogs smell more than you'll ever see, yet you think you have enough information to make a purely "rational" judgement of things, let alone that which is transcendant. your use of symbols to communicate(letters and words), is stritcly an act of faith, as is navigating a roadway, or walking, or remebering 5 minutes ago, let alone remembering your childhood or discussing history.

you do so many things by faith and yet bad programming allows you to think you move wholly rationally, which is absurd, as is trying to prove god. the universe(uni=one, union togetherness a wholeness) is proof enough that there's more going on than just your own conciousness. the perversion of reality is the one that says that your conciousness is the only and true, reality. really, you're just a miniscule part of a much bigger wholeness. get over yourself. it doesn't matter that much what you think, what is is much more interesting, even if it seems to make no sense.....

now if you call into question some specific children's story, fine, i get that. good, these things are good to check. don't think you can decide for others, though any more than they can decide for you. if you are going to decide for yourself, it might be better to make sure you see as many different angles of the thing to be sure that you see it properly and true(as possible). otherwise, oyu have done no better than to make a decision based upon faith.

you are right to not want others to force you into beliefs that you know nothing of, but you are wrong to be mad at others for trying to show what they see, even if they are mistaken, as you don't like to be treated that way yourself, and it's possible that you are mistaken, as you don't have all the universe's information to make a properly informed decision. all people are subject to this, one of god's, laws.

BingoTheClowno · Post by **BingoTheClowno** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 10:33 am

garyb wrote: you are right to not want others to force you into beliefs that you know nothing of, but you are wrong to be mad at others for trying to show what they see, even if they are mistaken, as you don't like to be treated that way yourself, and it's possible that you are mistaken, as you don't have all the universe's information to make a properly informed decision. all people are subject to this, one of god's, laws.

What you say others see but I don't is the charlatanry. You agreed that you don't have the proof of god existence but you still claim that you "see" him and you insult me for being a charlatan because I don't see what you see? You're such a fake.
You know, wanting something to exist even though everything shows it doesn't and creating elaborate theisms to support those false ideas is not very healthy. It is called a mania and you show very strong signs of it.

manfriday · Post by **manfriday** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:57 pm

wanting something to exist even though everything shows it doesn't

what proof is there that God doesn't exist?
I have not seen any. I'd be quite interested to see this proof.

BingoTheClowno · Post by **BingoTheClowno** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:55 pm

manfriday wrote:
wanting something to exist even though everything shows it doesn't
what proof is there that God doesn't exist?
I have not seen any. I'd be quite interested to see this proof.

There are plenty.
First, we know that god did not create the Universe. The Universe was created with the Big Bang. The Earth was not created in 7 days but it was created in billions. You claim he created the man in his own image but we are not ominpresent and omniscient, thus that's a lie (not to mention as whole this whole notion is retarded). And on and on. What you chose to believe in is pure folklore.

BingoTheClowno · Post by **BingoTheClowno** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 2:06 pm

stardust wrote:Bingo,

I appreciate that you are now more careful than you were before when you start to overestimate yourself.

Still, you lack of modesty towards other's experience.
This is no insult as you might claim again.
You are so concerned with your (tortured) ego that you very likely will not see anything than your own point of view.

Is it really so difficult to accept that you and the likes of you are not the superbrains and messiahs that the world has waited for ?
In the best case you attract some other egocentrics to share their personal pretentiousness.

You dont know nothing more about this world than others, but you are entitled like anyone else to live a good life and be a good example what life should be.

It is easy to let you live your way of life. It does not matter much. I wish you a happy, meaningful and prosperous life. Dont suffer too much. That is really unhealthy.

Egocentric? Superbrains? I suffer?

What the fuck do you know about my life? Do you know me personally? What would you call your generalisations besides presumptious bullshit? Did god tell you that I suffer? Are you sure? That's all that you do and did in this thread. Whenever your argument fails, you go straight for personal attacks.

Please spare me your doctrine of salvation. It lacks of capacity.

If you really think that's what this is then you are demented.

manfriday · Post by **manfriday** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:04 pm

First, we know that god did not create the Universe.

not really..

The Universe was created with the Big Bang.

So? How does that prove God does not exist?

The Earth was not created in 7 days but it was created in billions.

So? How does that prove God does not exist. So far all you have done is offer evidence that the book of Genesis is not a literal account of the formation of the earth.
It's hardly "proof" the God does not exist.

You claim

I have not made any claims about my beliefs on the matter...
Dont put words in other people mouths..

..created the man in his own image but we are not ominpresent and omniscient, thus that's a lie

That is a false dillema. You are choosing to interpret the bit about "god's image" in a certain way, that is most beneficial to your argument.

"in the image of" is quite open to interpretation..
Do you object to the idea of a scuptor carving a stone in the image of himself by saying "That is not in your image! It cant move or breathe or eat!"

And on and on.

well, what do you mean on and on? You have not made a single real argument so far.

What you chose to believe in is pure folklore.

I do not "choose" to believe in anything. I have a background in judeo-christianity, as I have mentioned before, but I am not a church goer, nor do I call myself a "christian". There are many many things about Christianity that do not make sense to me.
Fundamentalist interpretations of the bible are most certainly one of them.

Sorry to say that I do not fit neatly into either YOUR idea of what an atheist should be, or a Christians idea of what a Christian should be.

Post by **garyb** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:06 pm

bingo, where did i say that you were more limited or wrong than anyone else?

reread my post. you have misinterpreted, and in that sense, proven my point, which was never in opposition to you, personally.

as i said, this is a stupid conversation(so stupid in fact, that it also proves my point, that such stupidity shouldn't expect to prove anything). the stupidity is this: "prove it!" "no!" "then you're lying" "so what!" over and over.... pointlessness...

and where's the proof of this alleged "big bang"? YOU HAVE NEVER SEEN IT! not that i don't think the "big bang" happened, you just take that it happened "by faith". also, since I know that time is a dimension(a measurement of spatial extent), i know that causality based on time is an illusion, therefore,"began with big bang" and "seven days" are really non-sequitors anyway.

face it, all you know is that you don't believe the children's stories. you really know nothing about the subject otherwise. who is this "god" character you don't believe in? the islamic god? the catholic god? the buddhist god? molech? saturn? chronus? quetzaquatl? ALL of the bible quotes you might make are based on suspect translations of much older text. this much we agree on, most who claim the bible really know very little about it. what do you really know about creation anyway? you don't even remeber your own birth! stop making statements that are likely as fallacious as the statements of groups you disagree with, or you are just as hypocritical.

don't take offense, please. this is just an internet conversation between relative strangers, strictly speculation....

alfonso · Post by **alfonso** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:16 pm

manfriday wrote:
what proof is there that God doesn't exist?
I have not seen any. I'd be quite interested to see this proof.

"To exist" is a property of matter, basically it means to have an extension, a physical dimension. Anything that doesn't have these attributes can't be defined as "existing", if you want to respect the meaning of the word. God doesn't "exist" by definition, because if it has a "dimension" it means that it's limited, it's a part of the whole and thus it's not god, at least for the Christian doctrine.

You might answer that our mind is too little to understand god...I absolutely agree with that, everything I've heard from anyone about the subject is absurd and against logic, thus I can't believe in any of these tales. This doesn't mean that I blindly trust logic, but for sure it has an higher rank than absurdity as a practical tool for life.

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:27 pm

garyb wrote:ALL of the bible quotes you might make are based on suspect translations of much older text.

Suspect indeed from what I've read, but you can't believe everything you read!!

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:40 pm

We went through this process before. I can make up all kinds of things that can't be proven. I have a good imagination. There is a 5 foot long solid gold cat 5 feet under the surface or mars. Prove me wrong.

When there is proof of god, I will look into it. If there is no proof and it seems unlikely then forget it. Society makes the outlandish normal though so if you think there is a god you are not considered insane but if you think the FBI is following you and there is no proof, then you are insane. You are forgiven (at least by current medical professionals) if you think there is a god. Just don't make it a 3 headed god with the body of an alligator because then I think you would be considered insane.

I'm just trying to explain things so you guys can see how we atheists feel about it.