God is not great: How religion poisons everthing

BingoTheClowno · Post by **BingoTheClowno** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 8:03 am

stardust wrote: You are angry again.
but it seems you are angry about the right thing.
When there should be people of any kind (-isms) that know that they are wrong, have a bad intent like manipulation, dragooning, mental slavery - whatever - this is morally wrong.
This is men's work then.

I don't understand, should I be happy or something at this charlatanry?

Post by **garyb** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 10:03 am

no, but what of che "charlatanry" of your own perception? human perception is easily proven as false. there's even art called "tromp l'oiel". this points to the faultiness of your senses. dogs smell more than you'll ever see, yet you think you have enough information to make a purely "rational" judgement of things, let alone that which is transcendant. your use of symbols to communicate(letters and words), is stritcly an act of faith, as is navigating a roadway, or walking, or remebering 5 minutes ago, let alone remembering your childhood or discussing history.

you do so many things by faith and yet bad programming allows you to think you move wholly rationally, which is absurd, as is trying to prove god. the universe(uni=one, union togetherness a wholeness) is proof enough that there's more going on than just your own conciousness. the perversion of reality is the one that says that your conciousness is the only and true, reality. really, you're just a miniscule part of a much bigger wholeness. get over yourself. it doesn't matter that much what you think, what is is much more interesting, even if it seems to make no sense.....

now if you call into question some specific children's story, fine, i get that. good, these things are good to check. don't think you can decide for others, though any more than they can decide for you. if you are going to decide for yourself, it might be better to make sure you see as many different angles of the thing to be sure that you see it properly and true(as possible). otherwise, oyu have done no better than to make a decision based upon faith.

you are right to not want others to force you into beliefs that you know nothing of, but you are wrong to be mad at others for trying to show what they see, even if they are mistaken, as you don't like to be treated that way yourself, and it's possible that you are mistaken, as you don't have all the universe's information to make a properly informed decision. all people are subject to this, one of god's, laws.

BingoTheClowno · Post by **BingoTheClowno** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 10:33 am

garyb wrote: you are right to not want others to force you into beliefs that you know nothing of, but you are wrong to be mad at others for trying to show what they see, even if they are mistaken, as you don't like to be treated that way yourself, and it's possible that you are mistaken, as you don't have all the universe's information to make a properly informed decision. all people are subject to this, one of god's, laws.

What you say others see but I don't is the charlatanry. You agreed that you don't have the proof of god existence but you still claim that you "see" him and you insult me for being a charlatan because I don't see what you see? You're such a fake.
You know, wanting something to exist even though everything shows it doesn't and creating elaborate theisms to support those false ideas is not very healthy. It is called a mania and you show very strong signs of it.

manfriday · Post by **manfriday** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:57 pm

wanting something to exist even though everything shows it doesn't

what proof is there that God doesn't exist?
I have not seen any. I'd be quite interested to see this proof.

BingoTheClowno · Post by **BingoTheClowno** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:55 pm

manfriday wrote:
wanting something to exist even though everything shows it doesn't
what proof is there that God doesn't exist?
I have not seen any. I'd be quite interested to see this proof.

There are plenty.
First, we know that god did not create the Universe. The Universe was created with the Big Bang. The Earth was not created in 7 days but it was created in billions. You claim he created the man in his own image but we are not ominpresent and omniscient, thus that's a lie (not to mention as whole this whole notion is retarded). And on and on. What you chose to believe in is pure folklore.

BingoTheClowno · Post by **BingoTheClowno** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 2:06 pm

stardust wrote:Bingo,

I appreciate that you are now more careful than you were before when you start to overestimate yourself.

Still, you lack of modesty towards other's experience.
This is no insult as you might claim again.
You are so concerned with your (tortured) ego that you very likely will not see anything than your own point of view.

Is it really so difficult to accept that you and the likes of you are not the superbrains and messiahs that the world has waited for ?
In the best case you attract some other egocentrics to share their personal pretentiousness.

You dont know nothing more about this world than others, but you are entitled like anyone else to live a good life and be a good example what life should be.

It is easy to let you live your way of life. It does not matter much. I wish you a happy, meaningful and prosperous life. Dont suffer too much. That is really unhealthy.

Egocentric? Superbrains? I suffer?

What the fuck do you know about my life? Do you know me personally? What would you call your generalisations besides presumptious bullshit? Did god tell you that I suffer? Are you sure? That's all that you do and did in this thread. Whenever your argument fails, you go straight for personal attacks.

Please spare me your doctrine of salvation. It lacks of capacity.

If you really think that's what this is then you are demented.

manfriday · Post by **manfriday** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:04 pm

First, we know that god did not create the Universe.

not really..

The Universe was created with the Big Bang.

So? How does that prove God does not exist?

The Earth was not created in 7 days but it was created in billions.

So? How does that prove God does not exist. So far all you have done is offer evidence that the book of Genesis is not a literal account of the formation of the earth.
It's hardly "proof" the God does not exist.

You claim

I have not made any claims about my beliefs on the matter...
Dont put words in other people mouths..

..created the man in his own image but we are not ominpresent and omniscient, thus that's a lie

That is a false dillema. You are choosing to interpret the bit about "god's image" in a certain way, that is most beneficial to your argument.

"in the image of" is quite open to interpretation..
Do you object to the idea of a scuptor carving a stone in the image of himself by saying "That is not in your image! It cant move or breathe or eat!"

And on and on.

well, what do you mean on and on? You have not made a single real argument so far.

What you chose to believe in is pure folklore.

I do not "choose" to believe in anything. I have a background in judeo-christianity, as I have mentioned before, but I am not a church goer, nor do I call myself a "christian". There are many many things about Christianity that do not make sense to me.
Fundamentalist interpretations of the bible are most certainly one of them.

Sorry to say that I do not fit neatly into either YOUR idea of what an atheist should be, or a Christians idea of what a Christian should be.

Post by **garyb** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:06 pm

bingo, where did i say that you were more limited or wrong than anyone else?

reread my post. you have misinterpreted, and in that sense, proven my point, which was never in opposition to you, personally.

as i said, this is a stupid conversation(so stupid in fact, that it also proves my point, that such stupidity shouldn't expect to prove anything). the stupidity is this: "prove it!" "no!" "then you're lying" "so what!" over and over.... pointlessness...

and where's the proof of this alleged "big bang"? YOU HAVE NEVER SEEN IT! not that i don't think the "big bang" happened, you just take that it happened "by faith". also, since I know that time is a dimension(a measurement of spatial extent), i know that causality based on time is an illusion, therefore,"began with big bang" and "seven days" are really non-sequitors anyway.

face it, all you know is that you don't believe the children's stories. you really know nothing about the subject otherwise. who is this "god" character you don't believe in? the islamic god? the catholic god? the buddhist god? molech? saturn? chronus? quetzaquatl? ALL of the bible quotes you might make are based on suspect translations of much older text. this much we agree on, most who claim the bible really know very little about it. what do you really know about creation anyway? you don't even remeber your own birth! stop making statements that are likely as fallacious as the statements of groups you disagree with, or you are just as hypocritical.

don't take offense, please. this is just an internet conversation between relative strangers, strictly speculation....

alfonso · Post by **alfonso** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:16 pm

manfriday wrote:
what proof is there that God doesn't exist?
I have not seen any. I'd be quite interested to see this proof.

"To exist" is a property of matter, basically it means to have an extension, a physical dimension. Anything that doesn't have these attributes can't be defined as "existing", if you want to respect the meaning of the word. God doesn't "exist" by definition, because if it has a "dimension" it means that it's limited, it's a part of the whole and thus it's not god, at least for the Christian doctrine.

You might answer that our mind is too little to understand god...I absolutely agree with that, everything I've heard from anyone about the subject is absurd and against logic, thus I can't believe in any of these tales. This doesn't mean that I blindly trust logic, but for sure it has an higher rank than absurdity as a practical tool for life.

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:27 pm

garyb wrote:ALL of the bible quotes you might make are based on suspect translations of much older text.

Suspect indeed from what I've read, but you can't believe everything you read!!

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:40 pm

We went through this process before. I can make up all kinds of things that can't be proven. I have a good imagination. There is a 5 foot long solid gold cat 5 feet under the surface or mars. Prove me wrong.

When there is proof of god, I will look into it. If there is no proof and it seems unlikely then forget it. Society makes the outlandish normal though so if you think there is a god you are not considered insane but if you think the FBI is following you and there is no proof, then you are insane. You are forgiven (at least by current medical professionals) if you think there is a god. Just don't make it a 3 headed god with the body of an alligator because then I think you would be considered insane.

I'm just trying to explain things so you guys can see how we atheists feel about it.

Post by **garyb** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:43 pm

the FBI is following you.

Post by **garyb** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:47 pm

Shroomz wrote:
garyb wrote:ALL of the bible quotes you might make are based on suspect translations of much older text.
Suspect indeed from what I've read, but you can't believe everything you read!!

true. but i was refering to specific quotes he has a problem with. you can't take things out of context and expect the original meaning to remain. since the bible is many books put together as one, taking things out of context is a very easy thing to do. never the less, none of this has anything to do with whether or not god exists.

braincell, no offense, but you can't even prove that you exist, especially if the proof will have to be done on an internet forum.

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:00 pm

This is an assumption we make based on the current state of artificial intelligence. It's unlikely that I am a computer but I guess it would be possible one day to fool people like that. We have to make a lot of assumptions. You assume there is a god. Perhaps based on what you were taught.

I know someone who is mentally ill who oddly enough used to think the FBI was following him but to help him. Now with better medication, he thinks that god is "holding him down", preventing him from functioning as most people do. My theory is that he switched his belief because it seems more rational. A god with magic powers is thought to exist by most people.

I told him "God isn't holding you down. You are sick" and he said "God is holding me down because I am sick".

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:07 pm

Didn't mean to dig you up out of context Gary. Actually, I thought that the quote was a great example of what makes so many people querie or question the fundamental legitimacy of christianity as we now know it.

Post by **garyb** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:19 pm

well, i see what you are saying, but some writing on a bulletin board does not make a real person. you don't even have to be a bot what do you really know about the state of AI. if the NSA developed true AI, do you think they'd tell you(or me) about it? anyway, you don't have to be a bot to not exist in reality. remember lonleygirl15? possibly, you're just my imagination and i'm just raving right now...

sometimes those who are mentally ill are telling the truth, sometimes not. i'll tell you this much, however, there are NO drugs that "cure" mental illness. just ones that make people more controllable, or "functional"(less a pain in the ass). from my experiences with a 33 year old child, i'd say demonic possession is just as likely as brain chemistry imbalance as the cause of mental illness. he sure acts like the drugs only tranquilize the demon. the bad ideas never go away, much like the bad ideas that the "normal" people carry, his are very logical if you see from his point of veiw. you'd probably come to similar conclusions if you had seen what he saw. in fact, mental illness is quite common and i'd say NO ONE in the civilized world was truly sane, but that's me. when i talk to you like you're a crazy man, you've got to understand, i'm not practicing some kind of freudian cocaine induced one-upmanship(freud was just another stupid junkie, but he's famous and now his ideas have infected society in a way as bad as any religion).

none of this has anything to do with the existance of god, however.

you say no, that's perfectly fine with me. if there is a god or not, your opinion won't change that one bit(neither will mine).

let's put it another way just for fun.
1. you say there's no god, but i say there is and in the long run it doesn't matter what i do to please the god and so i die and it never mattered.
2. you say there is a god and i say there isn't, but unfortunately it matters if i get with this god or not and i never did.
which scenario am i the most f@cked in?

kinda like another thing that can't be proven as a fact, that there'll be a tomorrow. if you live like there's no tomorrow and then there is, it's a real drag, but if you live like there's a tomorrow and then there isn't, then it didn't matter anyway, no harm done.....

Post by **garyb** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:02 pm

Shroomz wrote:Didn't mean to dig you up out of context Gary. Actually, I thought that the quote was a great example of what makes so many people querie or question the fundamental legitimacy of christianity as we now know it.

yeah, i know, it's cool. i wasn't refering to your quoting of me(though it works the same way..thanks for noting that

), but to people's habit of using bible quotes to prove a point about god or whatever...

personally, i find plenty to doubt about christianity as we now know it, but i respect christians in general, even if i don't like many of their church's doctrines, especially when the person really is trying to be an upright man, as close to that ideal of Jesus willing to take on the punishment of all men for their evil, to save others from suffering. there are many truly beautiful things and truths about existance in religion(or else it couldn't hold the key people needed to propagate it). unfortunately, Religion(capital R) is a tool of the state, the king(all of the original big religions are state religions). the community in religion is purely human, however and is worthy of us all, and i thank god we can care for each other and share that.

but this has nothing to do with god existing or not....

an OT aside:
as an american, rights exist only because of religion. since all men were seen to be made by god, it was said that god, not the government owned them and granted their rights by virtue of the man's existance. with the seperation of church and state, if you could show that you were a free man(the horrible compromise) americans were in a better position than in the past where god is the state, and the king is either god's representitive or avatar. this meant that the state owed allegiance to the people, not the other way around(a thought that's been returned to the nether world in the present time). just a practical note, with god gone, americans have nothing to guarantee their rights. the best current alternative would be to be party to the universal declaration of rights(a secular alternative) which only guarantees rights to people as long as those right don't violate the purposes or principles of the united nations, a much poorer reality. funny how the U.N.'s secular reality smells so much like the old omnipotent state. maybe there's a political advantage to eliminating god in the 21st century...

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:24 pm

I'd be interested in seeing the reality where everyone full-heartedly believed in their religeon & stuck to it, not change it to suit themselves & their political aspirations as has been done in christianity over the past 2000 odd years.

I do agree, that everyone's beliefs should be respected. I do in fact respect everyone's beliefs myself. They just don't all make sense to me. In fact most of them really do seem insane if you want to talk about sanity Gary. Some might say the insane are the sane ones though!!

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 9:51 pm

Bingo,

Here is a great woman:

http://www.atheists.org/

Post by **garyb** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 2:48 am

the atheists bible quotes are hilarious...and wrongly quoted, but that's ok, there are discrepancies in scripture and it's good to question them.

nice masonic logo. funny how the opposition looks so much like what it opposes.

also, a quote:
"we say: "Go ahead! Read the bible, and the Koran, and the other numerous books which claim to be divinely inspired. Study religious history...and then decide for yourself!""

soooo-they're not saying there's no god, just that they don't believe in the popular one. the "official" athiests' club linked by braincell is very different in tone from the rest of this discussion. their main complaint seems to be with the divinity of scripture rather than a hatred of the idea of god. if the idea is one of hating untruth, that might be seen as admirable. if the idea is strict nay-saying, then it's just petty and small minded. the "official" atheists suggest studying the subject carefully which is good advice, much better than what atheists have shown in this thread(just saying...). nowhere do they suggest being rude or disruptive except in defense of their right to abstain. i've got no problem with that. whether they're right or wrong it's their own problem. they do a good job pointing out the problems of language, but again, they are not really opposed to god, just the popular one.

in any case, either side of this debate is a house of cards. there are still no arguments that truly discredit god, just some claims made about god. i don't see how that link really applies to that lying pig christopher hitchins who says the great killings are all the result of religion(he's probably right if he's speaking of the cult of the horned god that he belongs to), while he calls for war in Iraq. again, he was the main "alternative" voice calling for sadaam's ouster, supporting the bush whitehouse. that is irrefutable.