CreamWare reloaded

gustav · Post by **gustav** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 4:56 pm

Frank :

Completely other stuff :

For the noah I really would like to see support for the foot switch - I'm a bass player and I love use Interpole but I have to change parameters while playing

EddieK · Post by **EddieK** » Sun Feb 08, 2004 10:58 am

Lots of interesting views here! It's my feeling that Creamware should keep the hardware to a minimum...no more Noahs. There is no doubt...todays music studios are pretty much just computers, so keep the external boxes to a minimum and stop the huge development costs that bankrupted Creamare.

Hardware-wise, I think revamped internal cards is the way to go...no Firewire or USB2. Make only 1 size card. I see no real reason for a small card...the cheap audio/midi interface cards work fine, and an underpowered SFP system is rather useless.

So that means 1 new and powerful card...PCIX or PCI Express, or whatever will reach the most computers. And for god's sake, please have plenty of memory to run reverbs!

What has happened now, is that native systems are competing with SFP, so Creamware has to offer a reason to buy their products. For me those reasons would be power and great sound...and ease of use.

For me, the BIG FLAW wih SFP is that it's its own program. It always has to run from Logic/Cubase or whatever. I was secretly hoping Creamware would be purchased by Steinberg, so that SFP would become this all-in-one killer app! That would kick Digi in the ass.

Anyway, I think the only way Creameware will survive is to offer a simple, powerful system that's easy to use, and goes way beyond what you can do native.

Immanuel · Post by **Immanuel** » Sun Feb 08, 2004 12:01 pm

no more Noahs. There is no doubt...todays music studios are pretty much just computers, so keep the external boxes to a minimum ...

(I believe) There are a good deal of keyboard players, who would like a simple easy (computerless) setup for live use.

I see no real reason for a small card...the cheap audio/midi interface cards work fine, and an underpowered SFP system is rather useless.

There are members of this forum, who's work is in huge contrast to you statement.

And for god's sake, please have plenty of memory to run reverbs!

If that is technically possible, then YES - I fully agree. Lets get rid of some PCI-limitations.

borg · Post by **borg** » Sun Feb 08, 2004 12:21 pm

For the noah I really would like to see support for the foot switch - I'm a bass player and I love use Interpole but I have to change parameters while playing

isn't this possible with a midi foot controler like the behringer FCB1010? or are you looking for CV?

i don't have noah, and doubt myself if it was a wise thing from a commercial point of view to release it, but if CWA ever get to releasing an electronic piano, i think especially rhodes, (and other synths/plugs) this product should appeal to every (semi)pro keyboardist. there's no doubt it's sound is superb. combine this 2U rack space with a decent master keyboard and you're off...

other stuff:
we're talking computers here. there'll always be a better/faster/more stable system in the make. when something new hits the market, future plans are being made. so my best bet is to find a decent second hand mac to put my thrusty CW cards in when my other machine dies on me.
while firewire sounds really cool as you could plug it into more than one machine easily (and take it out to a friend), i would opt for the most powerful solution (as i understand from reading this thread (not really into tech stuff myself), this is still a card in the computer case, like PCI express. but i guess this would mean the end of mac support, or is X compatible with express? (i hope it's not the same, or i would make a complete fool of myself

)).
difficult times indeed.

alfonso · Post by **alfonso** » Sun Feb 08, 2004 12:48 pm

Maybe a cool idea could be to develope an external card with several connecting options all available (Firewire, USB2,Pcmcia) plus an ultrafast proprietary connection for special desktop connection cards of all the available PCI formats (Expr., X, 2.1 etc) that you can buy to suit your machine, and change with little money if you change machine, while all the dsp, i/o's and registration stuff remains...

Immanuel · Post by **Immanuel** » Sun Feb 08, 2004 12:56 pm

Looks Magma like. But then, I have often dreamed about a Magma - especially, if it had better (real PCI) performance.

But then again. for now, I will just save up for a 4U rack mountable PC-case.

huffcw · Post by **huffcw** » Sun Feb 08, 2004 1:03 pm

A 2U rackmount case works pretty nicely also (that is what I am currently using). I control it with my laptop using remote desktop program.

The one thing that would help out this setup is for Creamware to improve the graphics performance of the SFP software. It is the only software on my computer that has re-draw problems when using remote desktop.

Even though this setup is pretty portable, I would still like to see a solution that would hook directly into my laptop in a slimer, lighter design.

[ This Message was edited by: huffcw on 2004-02-08 13:05 ]

huffcw · Post by **huffcw** » Sun Feb 08, 2004 1:13 pm

By the way, another (cheaper) option is a light-weight Micro ATX case - with a handle on it - http://www.directron.com/cstr100.html

Also, if anyone is interested in a 4U case, let me know - I have a really solid one to sell that I am no longer using (since I moved to the 2U rackmount).

cannonball · Post by **cannonball** » Sun Feb 08, 2004 2:09 pm

hi

i think the idea of anexternal box optimised for our creamware card is the best way

ale

dehuszar · Post by **dehuszar** » Sun Feb 08, 2004 2:50 pm

... and if these external boxes were 1/3 1U rack spaces and there was a 1U bracket that could have front panels taken off as you stack up more cards (up to 3!).

Even better would be to have all the connections in the back with mirrored connections in the front which cancel out the rear connections when something is plugged in! THAT'd be sweet.

More daydreaming...
Sam

Shayne White · Post by **Shayne White** » Sun Feb 08, 2004 5:13 pm

On 2004-02-08 12:48, alfonso wrote:
Maybe a cool idea could be to develope an external card with several connecting options all available (Firewire, USB2,Pcmcia) plus an ultrafast proprietary connection for special desktop connection cards of all the available PCI formats (Expr., X, 2.1 etc) that you can buy to suit your machine, and change with little money if you change machine, while all the dsp, i/o's and registration stuff remains...

That would probably get REALLY expensive, having all that different hardware. The whole point is to keep costs down.

alfonso · Post by **alfonso** » Sun Feb 08, 2004 5:25 pm

Well, true...
but PCMCIA or FW only and pci card connection would be very very tasty too...

The pci connection card could really be the way to adapt SFP to any present and future format...without a lot of financial involvement.

[ This Message was edited by: alfonso on 2004-02-08 17:26 ]

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Sun Feb 08, 2004 7:22 pm

On 2004-02-08 12:48, alfonso wrote:
Maybe a cool idea could be to develope an external card with several connecting options all available (Firewire, USB2,Pcmcia) plus an ultrafast proprietary connection for special desktop connection cards of all the available PCI formats (Expr., X, 2.1 etc) that you can buy to suit your machine, and change with little money if you change machine, while all the dsp, i/o's and registration stuff remains...

This would definitely be my preference - an external box, standardized, usable without a computer, with easy ways to upgrade DSP (you would only need 1 type of addon hardware with maybe several slots to fill up) and I/O, ideally with built-in firewire and also a proprietary connection going to optional PCI/PCI-X/PCMCIA cards which would hopefully work in addition to the firewire bandwidth.

Probably way too expensive to develop and buy for the end user, but it would be a killer device IMHO.

dbmac · Post by **dbmac** » Sun Feb 08, 2004 7:33 pm

I really hope CWA uses whatever resources it has to develop the software side of the product - SFP 4, updated STS devices, debugged ModIII etc.
That, and a new marketing strategy.

Leave the hardware alone, too costly to develop and manufacture. I think that's where it all went wrong last time.

/dave

LHong · Post by **LHong** » Sun Feb 08, 2004 7:56 pm

Wow, I'm so glad to hear "Creamware Reloaded". Congrats to Creamware DSP technology, wishes to Creamware that is being more sucessful, be able to continue supporting current products as well as the near future products. Please keep up the good works...

To Frank,
A few things as wishlist:
* Release the drivers for Windows (some of them still in beta like WDM).
* Linux supported driver and platform.
* Giga GSIF V1.0 and V2.0 compatible (Giga Studio V3.xx)
* Rewire supported.
* VST supported: What is the XTC? How about VST plugged-in for Creamware SFP Tools. In other words, SFP can be as VST host.

Here is the proposed that How it works:
A. Implementation:
SFP Scope Fusion Platform is as built-in DSP Digital-Signal-Processor-Platform-Engine, it would possibly be allowed many Native DSP algorithms like VST can be plugged-in. I wouldn't say it is easy but it can be done in reverted conversion order between XTC and VST. There can be 2 ways to implement it:
1> Provide the SDK for VST to SFP compiler. Who knows the VST can takes advantages, there are about hundreds or more of VST developers with huge of existing VST availabilities.
2> VST to SFP wrapper. SFP audio engine might be required, see the Requirements.

B. API Requirements:
The SFP might be required some low level (kernel Audio Driver Engine) interface, be able to take advantage of native CPU/Memory/Harddrive/file transferred/Streamming protocol and/or onboard DSP algorithms via PCI or whatever latest protocol interface. Let say with 15/30 DSP chips and with 3~4GhzCPU/2~8GB-MEM can be extremely gained 10~50x performance that what we have now! The challenging is how to combine the best efficient used of CPU and DSP.

C. Hardware Requirements:
Like the current SFP is as opened architecture, now the hardware also be opened architecture. Here is an ideal interface as follows:
1> Interface and platform: The hardware can provides basic Interface engine (PCI/USB2/Firewire) but it can be exchangeable, reconfigurable as user defined (simple jumper set or reprogrammable devices: Micro-Controller/FPGA/CPLD/Flash/Plug-and-Play interface).
2> DSP engine: The hardware (box/PCB host or slave device) is as the motherboard with new defined standard DSP-Bus-Interface connections (Pwr-Supplies, Address Bus, Data Bus, R/W/CTRL, DMA, Interrupt, etc), which be allowed some daughter boards can plugs-in and be able to accommodate multiple DSP systems at very high-speed.
The DSP engine should be here (daughter boards), there shouldn't be any limitation by number of DSP chips nor DSP grand-name/manufacturing. Motorola, TI, EMU or Analog Device DSPs can be designed, of cource as long as they don't be mixed, otherwise the software will be more complicated.
The daughter board ID also might be defined to distinguish the identity and personality. This daughter board is not necessarily developed by only Creamware, as well as Creamware can specifies, the hardware third party can provides many functionalities. Memory expansion also can be defined on daughter board and/or DSP motherboard as well.

D. Mechanical/Logical/connection interface:
Some high density/SMT DSP footprint devices and connectors and/or right angle mount as needed for the Mechanical/Logical interface between DSP mother board and Daughter board, be able to accommodate large number of logic design. Of course, you want to keep everything are as low profile as possible. The daughter should provides the straight through unbuffered connections (identical to DSP-MB connectors) in order to provide many other daughter levels as stack-up (up to 4 daughter boards, the second board can plugs into the first board and so on, for example). If more than one daughter board then it might be required 2 PCI spacing slots. Each Daughter board should handles up to 32/64 DSP devices, 64/128-BIT at GHz bandwidth and with any samplerates. The high performance PLL/DLL(Phase/Delay-lock-loop) cicuitry is required in order to produce zero latency and zero phase delay possibility.

There are many advantages, some of those are that we can have many DSP CHIPs (100+) as well without needed multiple PCI cards nor TDM cables (trouble free, Latency free and very high-speed). A real wide opened-Architecture from hardware to software platform. It never be obsolete since everything are reprogrammable and reconfigurable even platform and/or protocol.
Also, it would be huge of time-saver and quick turn-around for any new generations in Software and Hardware Development.

Just a thought,

Best regards,
LongStudio

[ This Message was edited by: LHong on 2004-02-12 00:22 ]

EddieK · Post by **EddieK** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 2:50 am

Any time you have an external solution, the cost goes up, and the power goes down. My point was: a simple, easy to use, and more powerful-than-native system is essential.

Someone also made a point that Creamware should focus on the software. I agree! Bring on a new killer sampler!

My point about small SFP systems being useless was that they did not offer much more than strictly native systems..in terms of power.

These days there are so many vst instruments and smaples...not to mention Gigastudio...available, that a small DSP card can not really compete.

gustav · Post by **gustav** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:58 am

another idea : a new plugin as the 6string but for wind instruments

Shayne White · Post by **Shayne White** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:40 am

On 2004-02-09 09:58, gustav wrote:
another idea : a new plugin as the 6string but for wind instruments

Hear, Hear!

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 3:03 pm

And make sure it has breath control unlike the STS series which only has aftertouch...

Doh!

EddieK · Post by **EddieK** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 3:09 pm

Have you heard the Vienna Symphonic winds? They're pretty amazing, and the legato tool makes for stunning realism. My guess is the amount of work to do a sym of that complexity would be staggering.

I think they should focus on making SFP less buggy and more user-friendly, and better integration into existing sequencers.