CreamWare reloaded

interloper · Post by **interloper** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 12:09 am

I agree. Whenever I try to explain the system and start with "Scope Fusion Platform", I get blank stares. Then people take a look at the routing window, and I feel like I need a whiteboard and some dry erase markers...

Keep it simple, but don't change it to something totally different. "Scope" would be nice and short, and is not too far from SFP.

jabney · Post by **jabney** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 1:15 am

Dear Mr. Frank Hund and Creamware devotees,

We need a Creamware sequencer.

What if I were to tell you that there is already a powerful, elegant, sfp-like sequencer sitting unused on the shelves at Microsoft? Well there is such a sequencer and it is called Bars & Pipes Professional.

Microsoft bought a company called The Blue Ribbon Soundworks Ltd. to acquire some of their low level technology. Blue Ribbon itself was not a Microsoft developer. Rather, the company developed for the somewhat Unix-like Amiga and (to a lesser extent) the even more Unix-like Silicon Graphics platforms. The company's premier product - which Microsoft never exploited - was Bars & Pipes Professional (B&P Pro) "a high-end MIDI sequencing and composition package."

On the Amiga, B&P Pro was able to run in conjunction with the SunRize Studio 16 hard disk recording system. (The SunRize Studio 16's AD 516 card was built around an Analog Devices (Pre-SHARC) DSP chip. Bars & Pipes' code understood the Analog Devices chip well enough to be able to sync with it at what I would assume was a pretty low level.)

The graphics of B&P Pro were colorful, though fairly low-res for 2004. The user interface, however, would feel comfortable to any sfp user. The sfp interface is more open and flexible than B&P's, but the general idea of connecting smart icons in a path is pretty much the same.

A native Creamware sfp environment with VDAT and Bars & Pipes Pro would satisfy the needs of many musicians without having to resort to some of the steps we have to take currently if we want to run a sequencer and sfp at the same time. Both sfp and Bars & Pipes Pro are relatively intuitive. Despite their power, they don't get in the way and they don't make the user (or me at least) feel stupid, unlike some sequencers which shall remain nameless

.

Mr. Hund, if adapting B&P Pro to sfp (and Windows and Mac) sounds feasible (remember, it ran on SGI as well as Amiga), I suggest you contact Microsoft and see if they will sell or license the source code and copyrights for Bars & Pipes Professional to Creamware Audio.

At one time, some Amiga developers tried to buy the rights to B&P Pro, but the price Microsoft was asking then (mid 1990s) was much too high. Microsoft had no interest in seeing the Amiga survive, so they would have had little or no incentive to sell to an Amiga developer.

Why would things be different now? Because Creamware is one of the reasons Microsoft is finally being taken seriously in music production. A stronger Creamware platform would reflect favorably on Microsoft. Also, Microsoft's political situation these days may make them more amenable to overcoming a "dog in the manger" image. And of course a number of years have passed since Bars & Pipes Pro was last upgraded (but great code is still great code).

Besides, if Microsoft says no to selling Bars & Pipes Pro at a reasonable price, you could always ask them if they think you should turn to the open-source software community to develop a sequencer, etc.

If such a sequencer wound up looking and responding like Bars & Pipes Pro (I do have the manual), well so much the better.

If you want more information, let me know.

John

Grok · Post by **Grok** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 3:08 am

...

L.I.N.U.X. !!!!
L.I.N.U.X. !!!!
L.I.N.U.X. !!!!

We need professional tools, not unstable tools. "Fidelity at work" has been a joke with Windows. SFP is not complex at all, it is a great concept with some astounding plugins. Linux is going to invade audio professional structures, little by little, because of its comparatively phenomenal reliability and stability, like dedicated hardwares. As Linux has already took the first place in Hollywood for special FXes.

http://www.linuxaudio.org

[ This Message was edited by: Grok on 2004-02-03 03:33 ]

Grok · Post by **Grok** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 3:29 am

I'm currently building my new mobo, and guess what? Everything is working perfectly (Windows XP) except when I install my Creamware cards.

Everything is working perfectly except when SFP is running; at this time comes unstability and crashes. Hope I'll can fix this.

Don't ask us to vote for USB 2.0 or Firewire. It is an obvious choice, and Creamware Audio must have the technical knowledge to choose between Firewire or USB 2.0 without our "votes". USB 1.0 is a crazy shame for the Noah.

I'm asking myself how comes that a company wich has more than 30000 captive users can sink like Creamware has. The only logical answer for me is this one: Noah.

Unlike others audio companies, Creamware cannot even pretends that they were "victims of piracy"! Creamware's management is totally responsible.

Long Live Creamware Audio! And please, don't make the same mistakes in the future...

[ This Message was edited by: Grok on 2004-02-04 13:46 ]

bosone · Post by **bosone** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 4:11 am

On 2004-02-02 17:57, CW Frank wrote:
Thanks for all your comments and input. Demo contest and documentation reward program, for example, are excellent points. Please go on, we are listening.

for the demo, it not necessary have to be a contest (althought if a user make 100 good demos... well, maybe he's worth a free plugin!).
take a look at how many demo has http://www.garritan.com: they are all good and all made by users, without any rewards (me too have made a demo!). how many time would require by a team of demo-maker to do such an huge amount of songs?

users should submit demo to you (following specific guidelines), and you would judje if it's worth publishing or not, that's all! i think the more (good) demo there are, the better it is!

ah, and i hope you are taking a look also to the other thread in "general pulsar discussion" regarding marketing! there are good ideas there, too (including my video-demo suggestion!

)

Counterparts · Post by **Counterparts** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 4:56 am

I think it'll still be a while before we see 'major player' support for Linux. Reason being - simply not enough seats (I'm talking about home computers). They are 99.9% PCs or Macs.

MV Linux is starting to eat into the mobile/PDA markets however (some VERY big players investing millions there), which will hopefully help to raise its profile.

Of course, we already have Unix running under the hood in a lot of people's homes (OSX is FreeBSD, basically).

There's also a slight issue with the 'real-time' nature of bog-standard linux distributions. IMO this will need some improvement before becoming a suitable platform for intensive audio/sequencing applications.

Anybody checked out Rosegarden, btw?

http://www.all-day-breakfast.com/rosegarden/

Nice.

I'm pretty sure we will see CW continuing to sell and support the current line of cards - why ever not? They've spent a lot of £££s on developing this platform and have a substantial user base. I agree with the thoughts about the naming of their product/platform though. It doesn't really mean anything.

Perhaps it might be worth spending some money to put s bit of marketing 'spin' on the card - bring it to people's attention as a 'new' product as it were.

Compare:

"Virtual Studio Modelling" &
"Scope Fusion Platform"

I mean, the second one could be a name for a new pair of nike trainers!

Warning note:

In the eighties, Atari had the world's most kick-butt sequencing computer bar none. The Falcon in its day wiped the floor with PCs. Unfortunately, they had the marketing nouse of a fungal spore, hence went straight though the floor into oblivion

I'd be sad to see the same thing happen to Creamware.

Royston

Immanuel · Post by **Immanuel** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 6:15 am

If the software need a new name, (I think) it should be just "the Creamware software". It doesn't need a name, that sets it apart from the cards - like if it was something completely different. The cards and the software is one product (to me anyway). Let it have one name.

Grok · Post by **Grok** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 8:12 am

On 2004-02-03 04:56, Counterparts wrote:
I think it'll still be a while before we see 'major player' support for Linux. Reason being - simply not enough seats (I'm talking about home computers). They are 99.9% PCs or Macs.
(...)

Royston

3% of Macs, 97% of PCs...

Linux can be installed in any PC, if not in a Mac...

And now, specific multimedia tailored Linux's distros appears; this doesn't exists neither for Mac nor for Windows.

Talking about seats (if there is enough seats or not for an SFP with Linux), I guess in a medium or short time everyone seriously involved in sound and music will have his Linux distro in his computer. Because we need total stability and low latencies. Because we're sick of Windows and Mac issues.

Serious guys are working on the topic...It is just and simply a matter of time. No need for a "major player", the Linux community is a major player by itself. There is more knowledge in this community than in any commercial audio company we could talk about.

http://www.agnula.org
http://www.linuxaudio.org

[ This Message was edited by: Grok on 2004-02-03 08:15 ]

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 8:38 am

Yes, the software should be nameless - or at least very obvious (as suggested) CWA software version 3.1, or Routing Environment 3.1 etc. No one would expect the Kontakt version 1.5 software build to be called the Panorama Linkage Accelerator v1.5, it'd just be stupid.

And Bosone: no need to deny everyone their chance at a few miserable crumbs. Sheesh

GonZoft · Post by **GonZoft** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 8:45 am

I really don't see where you get all this. There is no mention of discontinueing the current products. Then they would have nothing to sell anymore. The notion of then introducing a new hardware platform with no backwards compatibility sounds absurd to me. Why on earth would they do that? The "new product" will most likely be a new plugin (e-piano anyone?) for SFP. Do you think they'll "discontinue" their current plugins?
Frank already said SFP4 is a possibility for the future, but we probably shouldn't expect it anytime soon.

A new plugin for SFP, you say? Come on. Whoever bought this company must have a plan beyond releasing a new plugin for the products that led to bankrupcy. I don't believe that this person(s) will invest a single cent in SFP. Of course they will keep selling the current SFP software at the online store, it doesn't cost them a cent to do so. But I bet that in a few months you won't be able to buy a Pulsar card. And anyway, if the products wouldn't be discontinued, then what'd be the point to announce that customer support and warranty will go on? No need for such announcements then. I expect them to release a completely new product that has nothing to do with Pulsar, Scope or SFP. Some powered plugins, or even native ones perhaps. And without own OS, but Windows XP and OSX ready.

Cheers

GonZoft

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 8:45 am

Flexor has tips built into each module. I find this to be ingenious. Creamware should to the same with their modules and devices.

doodyrh · Post by **doodyrh** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 8:49 am

On 2004-02-02 13:43, Spirit wrote:
It should just be the Creamware software version 3.1...

the problem is that CreamWare market different products.

On 2004-02-02 20:17, hubird wrote:
...while Scope is perfect...

The problem is it's also the name of their hardware product.

I stand by Studio Fusion Platform. It makes sense without having to change everything.

fusion (3a) "The merging of different elements into a union"

[edit]
Err, well perhaps not

http://www.studiofusion.com/
[/edit]

[ This Message was edited by: doodyrh on 2004-02-03 08:53 ]

King of Snake · Post by **King of Snake** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 9:10 am

A new plugin for SFP, you say? Come on. Whoever bought this company must have a plan beyond releasing a new plugin for the products that led to bankrupcy. I don't believe that this person(s) will invest a single cent in SFP. Of course they will keep selling the current SFP software at the online store, it doesn't cost them a cent to do so. But I bet that in a few months you won't be able to buy a Pulsar card. And anyway, if the products wouldn't be discontinued, then what'd be the point to announce that customer support and warranty will go on? No need for such announcements then. I expect them to release a completely new product that has nothing to do with Pulsar, Scope or SFP. Some powered plugins, or even native ones perhaps. And without own OS, but Windows XP and OSX ready.

Maybe you should try actually reading Franks's announcement before posting nonsense.

First of all, the people from the original company bought the old CW from the administrator who was in charge of the companies assests during the insolvency.

This new and fresh start of the company became possible after CreamWare Audio GmbH reached an agreement to purchase all major assets from Dirk Obermüller, the insolvency administrator of CreamWare Datentechnik GmbH

So they basically bought all the assets of their own company back. CWA is the same as CW albeit with a smaller staff and probably some other internal changes.

And last but not least, we’re looking forward to working with many of the same people we have enjoyed working with in the past.“

They announced that support and warrancy will go on because obviously this is what most people will have been worrying about since the insolvency was announced.

On February 1st, a new company, CreamWare Audio GmbH, will be able to continue development of existing CreamWare products, technology and customer relations

And a new plugin seems to be the only realistic option since they haven't had any time to develop something big like a completely new system.

[ This Message was edited by: King of Snake on 2004-02-03 09:12 ]

[ This Message was edited by: King of Snake on 2004-02-03 09:13 ]

Counterparts · Post by **Counterparts** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 9:31 am

Grok wrote:

3% of Macs, 97% of PCs...

Hey! That's 100%! There must be some linux users out there...

Linux can be installed in any PC, if not in a Mac...

You can install Linux on a Mac, but...why would you? 0SX (i.e. FreeBSD) is absolutely NAILS compared to Linux.

And now, specific multimedia tailored Linux's distros appears; this doesn't exists neither for Mac nor for Windows.

Talking about seats (if there is enough seats or not for an SFP with Linux), I guess in a medium or short time everyone seriously involved in sound and music will have his Linux distro in his computer. Because we need total stability and low latencies. Because we're sick of Windows and Mac issues.

I've come across plenty of Linux issues, to be honest.

Serious guys are working on the topic...It is just and simply a matter of time. No need for a "major player", the Linux community is a major player by itself. There is more knowledge in this community than in any commercial audio company we could talk about.

http://www.agnula.org
http://www.linuxaudio.org

More knowledge...OK. But...better audio/real-time specific knowledge? I couldn't make that call.

I personally think that we'll see a drift towards various 'commercial' Linux distributions. E.g. MV Linux which I mentioned isn't free by any means...3x develoment seats for this product will cost your business $75,000 per annum! It is seriously starting to compete with CE.NET / EXP etc. though...

Royston

next to nothing · Post by **next to nothing** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 9:45 am

On 2004-02-03 09:10, King of Snake wrote:

And a new plugin seems to be the only realistic option since they haven't had any time to develop something big like a completely new system.

hmmm.... i kinda have a cutmaster XP feling...

King of Snake · Post by **King of Snake** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 9:50 am

Hmm, yeah now that you mention it, that was pretty much announced by Frank already no? So maybe no e-piano plugin just yet

GonZoft · Post by **GonZoft** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 10:50 am

On 2004-02-03 09:10, King of Snake wrote:

Maybe you should try actually reading Franks's announcement before posting nonsense.

Maybe you should try to keep things polite and not to patronize too much when answering other people's comments.

Now, only because it's the old dudes that bought the company back doesn't mean that they will go "See? We were right! Let's not change a thing!" and do the same mistakes they did before. And more. They most probably had to get some major credit from a bank which means that the bank will have this or other power of decision, independently of what they would like to do. I simply don't believe that the current Pulsar/SFP system has a future. Creamware didn't have enough human resources for this ambitious project with its own OS etc. Now that they have to fire people and outsource work, they will have to stick to less ambitious projects.

That's my opinion. Perhaps I'm wrong, perhaps not.

Cheers

GonZoft

Shayne White · Post by **Shayne White** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 11:41 am

I just wish they'd work on SFP 3.1d to fix a few bugs, if 4.0 won't come out for a long time.

I don't see any reason to stop using the name SFP. It's an acronym, it doesn't have to mean anything. Does anyone know what PCI stands for? DVD? I do, but I know some people who don't.

Shayne

interloper · Post by **interloper** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 11:43 am

On 2004-02-03 10:50, GonZoft wrote:
Maybe you should try to keep things polite and not to patronize too much when answering other people's comments.

Now, only because it's the old dudes that bought the company back doesn't mean that they will go "See? We were right! Let's not change a thing!" and do the same mistakes they did before. And more. They most probably had to get some major credit from a bank which means that the bank will have this or other power of decision, independently of what they would like to do. I simply don't believe that the current Pulsar/SFP system has a future. Creamware didn't have enough human resources for this ambitious project with its own OS etc. Now that they have to fire people and outsource work, they will have to stick to less ambitious projects.

That's my opinion. Perhaps I'm wrong, perhaps not.

Why are you still speculating? Better yet, why are you speculating in a negative way?

That period is over. The facts were laid out, and this thread is for suggestions on how to move forward, not negative drivel on why you think that this might not work.

If you have something constructive to offer, let's hear it. Otherwise don't clog this thread with crap.

CW was around for almost a decade prior to the insolvency. That speaks for itself. If people here think that insolvency after a recession and a post 9-11 transient instability is abnormal, then some research on the Internet is warranted. Many companies went through this. Here CW has reinvented itself, and even 1 week into the announcement you are going to poo poo what most everyone hailed as a good thing? Sheesh.

[ This Message was edited by: interloper on 2004-02-03 11:44 ]

Nestor · Post by **Nestor** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 11:44 am

I think people posting ideas, should perhaps put themselves into CWA place, so their ideas can make sense in a "practical" way. There are many interesting ideas, but they are totally out of scope, because the company would not be able to spend time on them.