Nails in the Coffin

[garyb]

[hubird]

oh wait! what? politicians say it's all my fault?

No, it was said you are wrong, which is something totally different.
Fault appeals to insulted (belly) feelings, where it isn't about personal 'fault'.
It's about how to solve the problem.

Legislation is one of the means, but if you say nothing good can come from any government then arguing stops of course.

what i don't believe is that the LEGISLATION will help in any way. i also don't believe that any of the ideas about changing the climate by governments or other powers that be can do anything but more harm.

[garyb]

well, if it takes legislation, then it's someone's fault.

here's a question, WHAT exactly is being legislated? CO2? you mean the stuff that humans breathe out and the by product of heating and cooking? isn't legislating against CO2 legislating against humanity? over less than 0.3% of all greenhouse gases? and i'm wrong because smart people told you so? so that means that you don't even know yourself. i have yet to hear a cogent argument how legislation will make one bit of difference in the Earth's climate. i have heard about incredibly STUPID things like "stable climate"(never existed, EVER) and "geo-engineering"(the worst of bad ideas). the fool politicians can't even handle basic issues like the equitable distribution of food, water, wealth and shelter, things that humans have quite a bit of control over. now i'm to blindly follow these foolish men while they mess with the Earth's climate? madness. the best that can come of such legislation is the loss of liberty.

[Nestor]

I COULD NOT AGREE MORE WITH YOUR WORDS GARY. I AM WRITING BIG, BECAUSE I AM ACTUALLY SCREAMING.

I just have to add that:

Those who present themselves as the savors of mankind and nature are exactly the ones that are bringing destruction, degradation and desolation.

In regard to what is goin on in the world right now:

People are so engaged in their own business and sensual lives that it seem they can't see what is coming upon us next year… How blind can humans beings be... and to which extent? It is always a surprise to me!

[braincell]

Well then I guess you know more than the scientists do. CO2 became a problems because there are too many people. With only a few million people, of course it wasn't a problem. They ought to be legislating against making more babies but that's not going to happen because of the religious zealots and nutcases who think it's man's purpose in life and duty to propagate while at the same time, they want to live as long as possible.

well, if it takes legislation, then it's someone's fault.

here's a question, WHAT exactly is being legislated? CO2? you mean the stuff that humans breathe out and the by product of heating and cooking? isn't legislating against CO2 legislating against humanity? over less than 0.3% of all greenhouse gases? and i'm wrong because smart people told you so? so that means that you don't even know yourself. i have yet to hear a cogent argument how legislation will make one bit of difference in the Earth's climate. i have heard about incredibly STUPID things like "stable climate"(never existed, EVER) and "geo-engineering"(the worst of bad ideas). the fool politicians can't even handle basic issues like the equitable distribution of food, water, wealth and shelter, things that humans have quite a bit of control over. now i'm to blindly follow these foolish men while they mess with the Earth's climate? madness. the best that can come of such legislation is the loss of liberty.

[garyb]

HUMANS ONLY PRODUCE 0.3% OF ALL CO2.
95% OF ALL GREENHOUSE GASES ARE WATER VAPOR, which has nothing to do with people.
the number of people in the world make just that much.
this is 100% peer-reviewed scientific data.

your theory is amusing, though.

[Eanna]

Yeah climate does change over years. I believe at the moment there is evidence that it's happening more quickly than other periods.

I don't get those that deny this. Another handy conspiracy theory to latch onto? One sponsored by petrochemical industry maybe? Like, we're running low on fossil fuels in some areas, it's getting more expensive to mine, it's gonna get more expensive over the next 50+ years. Anything we do now to improve the technology of renewable energy is surely a good thing? I live in Ireland.. Wind and wave energy is never in short supply! But no, we in Ireland give away billions (we're a small country!) paying Saudis, Norwegians, Russians, Poles, etc for their own 'natural resource' of fossil fuels...

So yeah, the government can have my tax dollar for CO2 or whatever premise they seek it, so long as that tax is spent on securing a self sufficient future for Ireland, freed from the shackles of handing cash to foreign petroleum multinationals..

[garyb]

CO2 taxes won't do what you want, although i'm 100% in favor of cleaner and renewable energy sources.

by the way, there is really no such thing as "fossil fuels". it's a complete misnomer. once more, petroleum can be made in the lab. Nazi Germany used synthetic petroleum for lubrication and fuel. petroleum is produced underground when carbon, oxygen and hydrogen come together under high pressure and heat. the oxygen and hydrogen come from water, and carbon is one of the most common substances in the universe. it's called fossil fuel because the stuff that's easier to get is contaminated by organic material from old layers of living matter that has died and been buried in the ground. recently(in the last 40 years or so) it's been discovered that the really good crude is much deeper and has no organic material in it at all. old wells thought dry 20 years ago, have refilled in many places around the world, because the stuff is made down there deep in the earth.

the problem with many "clean" technologies is that they are often as dirty or dirtier than petroleum, it's just that you don't see what goes into the manufacturing process. as i said, i DO have solar panels myself. the reason is more economic that environmental however, because solar panel construction is FILTHY. for economic reasons, i feel you on your desire to see your home free of the dependence on oil companies. if only CO2 taxes were about this kind of thing. what you may not be aware of is that middle east shieks, no matter how wealthy, do NOT own the oil companies. oil companies are owned by the same fools who are promoting addressing "climate change" with massive legislation. why do you think that David Mayer de Rothschild is a major spokesman? do you really think he's fighting against his family? that would be a real "conspiracy theory".

again, i have solar panels powering my home and studio. if you're so against petroleum, what are YOU actually doing to use less? or are you just waiting for one of your "betters" to figure it out and pass laws before you act on your beliefs?

[hubird]

Hardly anyone on Planetz disapproving conspiracy shit dares to take part in the discussions, because of the harshness of the 'believers'.
I still have some written down witnesses of that.

Just for that already I like your contribution Eanna

I say this also:
I think a moderator should avoid taking part in these discussions anyway.
Especially if he's having such extreme thoughts about people and society.
A moderator should be there for us all, and not for a few hardliners.
At least he shouldn't be the one who's even a leading force every time the subject comes above.
His compelling style of debating doesn't help either.

Ever seen A MODERATOR USING CAPSLOCK to be heard?

To show why he shouldn't get involved so deeply:
You see what happens here: the moderator's words are immediately hijacked by a panicking goof hammering on silly predictions only he seems to know.
The moderator himself shouldn't want that, he should really dislike it even.
It gives other members the feeling getting excluded.

Everyone should feel home on Planetz, (heavy) discussions should take place between members, not between the moderator and the members.
The moderator is supposed to watch members' style, not members' thoughts.

Otherwise Planetz looks captured by a conspiracy department from California and a few other small places on Earth, and other people don't feel home here.
I don't wanne be seen as living in a fascist country or as mindless 'sheep' following politicians by the one who is my host here, and more of those silly accusations from now and the past.

Don't you think?
Mary Christmas

Guess what happens when I would push the red '!' sign to the right of a post...where it goes to?
Any better argument for a moderator to hold back needed?

(I tried to be subtle in my post above (2nd one of this page), but apparently the message didn't work).

[garyb]

don't you think you should do something other than stifle discussion that you disagree with?

[hubird]

a moderator shouldn't bring himself in a position to have to throw that in so cheap just to defend himself

Let the community discuss, you'll see there will be much more takers in the end.

[garyb]

i'm just giving my opinions and experience.
i have committed no crimes and done no wrongs. i don't care if you like what i say, although i'm not trying to make you unhappy, either. live with it.

if you disagree, don't try to stifle my voice. give me the information i'm missing to change my mind.

[hubird]

You're my host here, I don't wanne discuss politics and big life stuff with you.
You should make me and everyone feel home here.
Imagine John would have acted like you do here.
He would've feel ashamed in his dreams afterwards.

You should reread my lengthy post above, it explains everything I have to say.
I do respect you tho.

[garyb]

what have i said that would make people uncomfortable in such a terrible way?
i suspect that you haven't read what i have written very carefully.

further, hubird, if you read what i responded to Eanna, i do understand his concerns and i'm sympathetic to them. i don't think he thought that i was simply shouting him down, although maybe he feels otherwise. it just looks like discussion to me.

hubird, i do understand your concerns. i apologize for making you uncomfortable. please don't participate with me in any of this sort of discussion, i don't want to damage you in any way. i think you're much too sensitive, though. it's just my opinion, it's not binding in any way. i'll ban myself if this gets too contentious and then PlanetZ won't have to deal with any California Conspiracies tm.

i only come here to help people with their Scope systems, but if my presence is too odious, i can easily give up moderator status. i'll count your vote against my presence. when i get nine more, i'll vacate Z entirely, ok?

the topic was Global Warming and CO2. we have discussed whether CO2 was involved and whether Global Warming was even real, or if it's merely Climate Change. no one has disputed the existence of Climate Change, only the best means to deal with it, if there's even anything TO be done. it's a vitally important subject according to those in charge and many here. if that's so, ANY conversation is critically important and helpful. again, that's just my opinion. there's no hatred involved, only conversation(my opinion, once more). please don't look at this thread if it's a problem. where i live "die gedanken sind frei".

[Eanna]

What am I doing? Well, I'd like to leave my CPU and motherboard with energy saving on, but Scope doesn't like it

Seriously tho, I do my part, shackled by the sources of energy that my provider uses to power their generators. And solar panels are indeed available in Ireland, but jeez, the West coast of Ireland isn't exactly West coast LA

Re. Climate change, why not assume it's fact? Alot of evidence to say it has changed to a statistically significant degree in recent past - not just state sponsored sources or otherwise, just good ole science... Why rile against the momentum to change to renewable cleaner sources for conspiratorial reasons? The messengers may piss you off, but the message is ok, no?

[garyb]

what i am arguing against is the idea that people are causing the change via CO2. that's just not scientifically valid. regardless of what the media says science says, the academic world says otherwise. again, human CO2 is less than 0.3% of all greenhouse gasses. this is a factual number. getting rid of all human life won't have a significant effect, as long as CO2 is the subject. actually, elevated CO2 levels often lead to lower temperatures in the long run, as this facilitates plant growth, which always lowers temperatures.

as i continue to say, cleaner energy is a great idea. i am 100% for it. this has nothing to do with carbon taxes.

by the way, Ireland is perfect for both with and solar. clouds don't mean that solar panels don't work. a coating of snow might...

what i also say is that the attempts to control or "stabilize" weather, which are 100% being developed and even currently used as evidenced by UN Weather Modification treaties and agreements, are much more of a threat than "climate change" itself. are these points arguable?

[Eanna]

Yeah Gary, all good. To be honest, I don't know enough about such UN treaties to comment!

Yeah CO2 tho, it's far behind water vapour for sure.. Water vapour has a feedback relationship for warming too, so anything we can do to reduce the warming effect is a good thing... No argument.

Anyway, yeah my original point stands - wish my government would invest in wind and wave - the money we dropped on the bank bailout in 08/09 would have built us an offshore wind power solution my kids would know.. And the subsequent financial benefits, adherence to international emissions treaties, and national pride for having done a good job, cannot be understated. If a carbon tax was initiated for that express purpose, that would be ok with me..

[garyb]

yes sir!
you have that 100% right!

[tlaskows]

YOLO - don't trust anyone, especially what you hear on the news on read online. It's all BS. I agree with whatever Gary's point was. I don't watch/read/listen to news for good reasons.

-Tom

[Nestor]

There you go again Hubird with the same old bad habit, using others to try to get down somebody else when you feel threatened in your “comfortable little lies about how the world is”, haven’t you noticed yet, that your trick have NEVER worked out? After 15 years or so, you should already know that you are going to be, again, in the same spot!