Nails in the Coffin

[garyb]

is there a simple solution that can be expressed in these forums?

how about trying to be less wasteful?

[MD69]

hi

for me, solving the debt problem will reduce consumerism and consequently reduce ressource consumption for useless products.

[garyb]

sure, but the money system is set up to increase debt. debt=power.

that's the problem, for the really big issues, you and i have little or nothing to do with things, we are pawns in service to kings.

[skwawks]

So what is the best way to help the environment?

Dont get all religious about it

[MD69]

Hi Gary,

I agree with you when it come to the "political" use of debt. In that case it reveal itself as a weapon of mass destruction, but a "clever" use of debt is just a kind of "time accelerator".
We have to take care on the way we use our debt and we spend our money.

cheers

[next to nothing]

i still find it fascinating how people seem to indulge on trying to do research on things they disagree on, but once the same media blows a story on "climategate", its an absolute truth not worthy on further research. "they lied". LOL (i think this is the first time i used those three letters in that context in this forum).

You got to love how a graphical representation made for the IPCC is being hailed as the one and sole reason people think human emitted CO2 is affecting our climate. I also praise the guts of people still thinking 4 hacked (and carefully chosen) US e-mail accounts represents thousands of people (a lot of them independent), i admire the bliss of ignoring everything outside of NASA-land.

Mind you, as far as i know the data is as correct as can be. i too question the graphical representation, but is there any false data in there? please advise.

Gary, do you sincerly think that the whole climate change research is based on CRU?

[Me$$iah]

I also praise the guts of people still thinking 4 hacked (and carefully chosen) US e-mail accounts represents thousands of people (a lot of them independent), i admire the bliss of ignoring everything outside of NASA-land.

Mind you, as far as i know the data is as correct as can be. i too question the graphical representation, but is there any false data in there? please advise.

These hacked email accounts are not from NASA ..... they are from the East Anglia University, which is the major advisory board to the British Government with regard to climatechange and provides DATA to the IPCC , and represent the way in which the whole climate 'debate' (i use the word looosly) is argued.
If you read the emails then you will notice that the actual data has been fudged in many ways and is in fact far from correct (this is talked about in these emails). Add to this the refusal to release the raw un-altered data (also spoken about in these emails) and the discussions about demonising and ridiculing anyone who opposed them or their data.

Pretty damning stuff actually.


But hey climate change has this great truthiness about it. We are a nasty dirty species, and we probably aint too good for Mother Earth. But truthiness is just that ...... truthiness, which isnt necessarily the real truth, but just seems so true it has to be right.

[astroman]

I've seen (and heard) a few minutes of A Gore's speech at that special event which was broadcasted worldwide.
That was one of the worst discourses I ever attended in my life...
and one of the appearingly most uncomfortable performers, who just didn't seem to be able to get over the fact that he was talking plain BS.
Which is pretty unusual for a dude of his kind.
Usually they are really convincing in public - the more public the better.
but this was a desaster - and made it clear for me the story is about something else.

cheers, Tom

[valis]

So what is the best way to help the environment?

Carbon Taxes as an extremely oversimplified 'chemical model of global warming' is--aside from other things--a way of conveniently reducing the whole discussion to a polarizing discussion. I think that's certainly been proven true for our small forum group here. Some of us are also arguing that Carbon Taxes are also ineffective or outright false "fix", and since everything revolves around the dataset generally put forth for the 'Carbon Taxes' aka. Global Warming/Climate Change "proof" in the form of that graph...

The original data is claimed 'destroyed' since it was 'adjusted' and 'corrected' and thus not kept around. The need to filter datasets to be usable in science isn't unusual at all. What is damning is both that the original dataset doesn't even exist as a basis of comparison (so PEER REVIEW of the filtering that has been done is no longer an option), and that a lot of the data that was chosen to be included and then used as a foundation for a 'bias' to 'correct' other datasets used elsewhere.

This second point is something I've seen less discussed in 'mainstream' media outlets (where they only cover things that can be conveniently discussed in the time allotted by simple statements) but shows up in some of the better (and worse) online and print based discussion. So there were arguments put forth that a lot of this data was 'eliminated' by East Anglia University in the cherry picking and 'filtering' of what was provided to the IPCC. To some it seemed like the data from areas located closer to population centers was represented more strongly, and then other datasets 'adjusted' to fit this bias. That's at least some of the argument 'against' the East Anglia Univ. in the 'climategate' controversy.

In my experience I've seen numerous solar-powered remote climate data gathering stations all around where even I live, in most of the places I've lived across the USA. When I see them they're almost entirely in rural areas, though that is merely my limited-anecdotal-experience. I also know from experience (personal anecdotes again) that when it's 110F in more southern city it can still be 85-95F not too far away due to differences in airflow and the increased albedo of the concrete jungle of the city (lack of hills and as much foliage as the surrounding countryside.) Living where I am now in more northerly climates, when the weather is borderline freezing in the city and the snow melts away within a day or so it usually stays firmly on the ground once you're far enough away from the city (regardless of elevation.) Depends on how far the overall climate of this area deviates between freezing & thawing but snow is usually on the ground many more months out of the year if I drive 20-30 miles in any direction from here.

So the idea that cherry picking some areas that have shown increased temperature in the post-industrial cultural areas to bias the overall dataset at least makes sense. The problem again is that much of the original data doesn't exist in 'unfiltered' form, and then you cue the "conveniently chosen" emails and conspiracy-tainted stringed orchestra sounds and let others draw their own conclusions.

(edit, 2 spelling errors: 'teh' and 'thought' instead of 'though')

[skwawks]

"So the idea that cherry picking some areas that have shown increased temperature in the post-industrial cultural areas to bias the overall dataset at least makes sense."

I agree. I can only say what I have read on this in " Heaven and Earth ,Climate Change the missing science" that weather recording stations have TENDED to be either placed closer to population centres or have population centres grow closer to them . What I do know is that there is an enormous amount of speculation in all research efforts , rightly so, and it's got to be pretty easy to cherry pick "evidence" to support just about any given position from some of that speculation .
Paul

[garyb]

what's not a hoax is that the folks setting up the banking system for these "carbon credits" are the same one's running the imf and answering to the title of "Lord". it's pretty clear by the fact that the info so eloquently stated here in the last two posts has NEVER even been entertained in the main press, even though these emails are admitted as genuine, that there is a real intention to deceive. "authority" hands down the official tale and it's the only truth regardless of evidence to the contrary, kind of like "global warming" itself....


YES, everyone's using the same data, as far as ANY mainstream, quoted from authority study. EVERY one is using those guys' work as a basis. they are doing peer review studies that use bad data, yes. there were a very few that knew that the data was bad, some tried to speak up but were silenced(as per correspondences in said emails). many have been asking for the raw data for quite some time, but have never been able to get it. doesn't anyone here understand how studies are funded and how much money is involved? who do you think has the money for such expensive research like ice core samples or sattelite studies? who do you think funds the gathering of such raw data? in this case, the UofEA did the surveys. who funded them, and who funded the funders?


my goodness, so many angles...

when is the last time you(any you) read 1984? what year is this, really?

[David]

I read it in 1983 and then again in 1985 but it wasn't so scary that time
War and Peace on the other hand...

[garyb]

maybe you should read it again.

most don't know what Orwell did for a living...it's easy to be distracted by the love story. of course, Huxley, he of the impeccable backround himself, always said it would be more like brave new world. yes, a world of pleasures masking a servitude that, according to Huley, one really shouldn't be very happy about(as he explained how they had figured out how to remote control chickens with electrodes in the brain in the '50's)...

oops, reread Valis' and Messiah's explanations in order to keep this side trip on topic.

[garyb]

besides all this cherry picking and "adjusting" of data, no one is accounting for the normal cycles of climate on the earth. i keep harping in the point of the little ice age, but actually it's a very relevant point. if a half century ice age ended in the mid 1800's, wouldn't a warming trend a hundred years later be well less than unexpected?

the thing that IS a hoax is the CO2 connection. no matter what people THINK sounds reasonable, the actual figures and HISTORY of the earth, show the theory to be impossible. only with the UofEA's work "adjusting" data, would the IPCC's theories look real. this is in the emails, specifically, that the number didn't work and that "adjustments" would need to be made to the numbers to make everything add up.

the earth is REALLY big. numbers that seem astronomical to humans are often small on a global scale. the earth is a tiny planet, but it's REALLY, REALLY big....

[MD69]

Hi

Thanks Valis to brings interestings arguments

Gary, 1984 doesn't help in this subject, moreover herbert marcuse's "One dimentional man" fit more on current control than 1984 which is a describing a totalitarian regime like the USSR.

the underlying agenda of all this is the one being worrying western governments:
energy: we are an energy based civilization, we need to secure access and to maintain availability of energy to future generation
food and water being others source of worries.

Sadly, the way choosen by politicians to communicate this to the plea is their usual business; lies ad manipulations. That's were I too disagree like Gary.

[Mr Arkadin]

and the discussions about demonising and ridiculing anyone who opposed them or their data.

Further, anyone asking to see this data - completely within their rights under the Freedom Of Information act - was fobbed off, and later the director was advised to give the names and addresses of anyone asking for this data to the police. What the fuck is that? The acts of honest scientists? If you question our data (or even just want to see it) we'll send the Old Bill round?

[dawman]

Well it is the House Of Lords right?
The Egyptians had the Guardians Of The Sky, the Greeks had the Olympians, etc.
Sadly the economy caused the stock values world wide to drop, so I understand they still need more money and control of resources.
Just look at the Duchess Of York gravelling around for 500 Large. Poor thing, those Sotheby's auctions are so expensive.

Us Serfs wouldn't mind these clowns carrying on for the sake of tradition, but when they fly around in Private Jets and are Chauffered in Limosuines, it serves as a terrible Role model.
Al Gore is a prime example of such hypocracy, but hey he has made 500 Million scaring people about rising Ocean levels and excessive ice melting, etc.
But I guess he plans on building some sand barriers and Sea walls for his new 9 million dollar beach house.........
I have always had a problem w/ authority, especially when they try and tell me they know whats best for me.
I will conserve becasue being conservative is a way of life, not a silly name for politicians who spend as much as their counterparts.
If I saw Al Gore pay a power bill that was under 2000 a month I might consider some of thier points, but really now, this is a media brainwashing that preps the sheep for future taxation.

What happens if we ask to see where the Carbon taxes are being used, which " Green " power plant,...?...........Will we be jailed and held in contempt...?

[David]

How climate change 'protesters' are dealt with

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xT6U0QDMpdo

[yayajohn]

Gor-el.jpg (39.6 KiB) Viewed 2325 times

[valis]

^^ lol!













So if that's whose coffin we were talking about, then maybe the Red states were right after all?





(At least until your voting map looks like this: )














but back to the whole nail in the coffin thing...