God is not great: How religion poisons everthing

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:26 pm

braincell wrote: I don't think that darkrezin authored a report on the issue therefore his comments are not so significant.

Nice edit. I guess whoever is reading this thread can make up their own mind.

Can you answer my points now please? I hope I'm not going to fall asleep waiting...

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:45 pm

According to recent polls, the health care crisis is the number one issue on the minds of U.S. citizens. It's not a question of everyone paying more. We can take away the tax cuts that Bush gave the wealthy as a big start. 90% oft the wealth is in 10% of the people so there are only 10% who really don't want this.

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:48 pm

This may or may not be true. But what does it have to do with the evil christians?

Also, the UK (population about 60 million) spends $200 billion of tax per year on the health service.

The US populaltion is about 300 million so this would be $1000 billion per year.

Do you really think this would be covered by the tax breaks Bush has given 'the wealthy'?

I'd also like to know how you're working out the tax budget. You seem to have a very deep understanding of it. I want to see ALL the working please.

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:28 pm

I do not know but that happens to be slightly less than the cost of the war in Iraq.

manfriday · Post by **manfriday** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:30 pm

Shame on you Gary, and Manfriday because you don't care about people other than yourselves!

Dude, shame on you for being such an asshat.

I went for years without heath insurance. It's not like I am some rich guy who is above heathcare worries.It's not that I dont care about people, it's just that I dont think the evil horrible christians are to blame for it.

manfriday · Post by **manfriday** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:31 pm

Maybe it would be better if they didn't pay for breast implants in the UK!

Shame on you for not caring about womens self esteem! You bastard!

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:39 pm

braincell wrote:I do not know but that happens to be slightly less than the cost of the war in Iraq.

Not a satisfactory answer, sorry. Where are you plucking these assumptions from? For someone so into 'facts' you seem to be making a lot of stuff up to suit whatever crap you're spurting.

So basically you're saying that the evil christians have forced the government to spend all their money on killing Iraqi's so that the US population don't get free medical care? Are you on crack, dear sir?

manfriday · Post by **manfriday** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:41 pm

According to recent polls, the health care crisis is the number one issue on the minds of U.S. citizens. It's not a question of everyone paying more. We can take away the tax cuts that Bush gave the wealthy as a big start. 90% oft the wealth is in 10% of the people so there are only 10% who really don't want this.

Ya know what sporto, if you really want to do something about the spiraling cost of health care in the US, maybe you should start telling your democratic congressmen to start thinking a little more serisously about medical malpractice tort reform, limiting the amount of money people can get for pain & suffering damages, limiting attorneys fees.. making it legal to force the plaintiff to pay the defendants legal fees if the court determines the lawsuit is frivolous,etc..

The cost of healthcare is a complex issue. Just saying "ok, government pays for healthcare!" is not gonna help. Start looking to pass a fair share of blame to democrats as well as republicans and you might find yourself in the right ballpark at least.

As Darkrezin said, the healthcare system in the uK is screwed. We dont want any part of a system like that.
Our own Social Security system is equally screwed and the last thing we need to encumber ourselves with anouther disasterous social program.

BingoTheClowno · Post by **BingoTheClowno** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:54 pm

Yes, we need the money to fight the "global terror".

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:07 pm

Why don't you ask our fellow member in Australia, AudioIrony about it. He just had a major operation on his ear. I asked what the cost was and he said "nothing, we have national health insurance". You can bet he is glad.

BingoTheClowno · Post by **BingoTheClowno** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:12 pm

manfriday wrote:
Richest nation in the world, 47 million with no insurance. Thanks Christians!
You have to be putting me on. Are you some sort of militant christian operative planted here to make atheists look stupid?

No Insurance? Blame Christians!
No Retirement fund? Blame Christians!
Stomach hurt? Blame Christians!
Cat get run over by a bus? Blame Christians!
No ability to discern reality from your own demented fantasy? Blame Christians!

Christians.. When blaming anyone else just wont do...

Straw-man argument!

The devout are the majority of most countries, so the burden falls on you for any change to take place.

manfriday · Post by **manfriday** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:05 pm

Straw-man argument!

That was not a straw-man argument.
It was not even an argument, it was mockery of Braincel's accusation that the christians are to blame for the fact that not everyone in the US has health care.

Why don't you ask our fellow member in Australia, AudioIrony about it. He just had a major operation on his ear. I asked what the cost was and he said "nothing, we have national health insurance". You can bet he is glad.

If he said he paid "nothing" he did not think it thru completely.
He is still paying for it every time he pays his taxes.
So are his neighbors. and the people down the street,etc.

It'd be like retirees saying the Government is just sending them free money every time they get their social security checks! The notion is ludicrous.

someone always pays.

Me$$iah · Post by **Me$$iah** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:08 pm

Garyb.

I agree with everything you say. Yup W and Tony, Bilderberg, the grove, the damn IMF and world bank. The rockafellas n rothchilds etc. I might even buy into the Icke Anunaki thing, or even the lost civilization of Hancock. im not sure how you feel on these, but im pretty openminded.
Except I cant agree with the god bit. Science is well on the way to explaining everything and as more knowledge is gathered, the more god retreats further into the smallest of gaps. Science has always superceded religion. Is there a single time when as a people we've obtained knowledge ,which has superceded the scientific view, from religion? Whereas I know of many examples where scientific knowledge has replaced that gained from ...say.. the bible.
I see no need to invoke any kind of creator.

I do verehmently opppse any paticular god because once you define 'god', then the illogic become obvious, and a non definable god, who created the universe, sometime somewhere for some reason, is just a waste of time. Why bother with god. If you know nothing about it, or can never know anything about it, even if its really there........ seriously ... what would be the point.

Also saying god created logic is also plain silly, is there any proof of this.. Man created logic to understand things.

tho I think im out of this topic, its so much more fun to watch the thread fall apart as the theists are bound to end up argueing about the true god, and the athiests argue about ....well at the moment... healthcare........

hehe this is great, keep it up y'all

BingoTheClowno · Post by **BingoTheClowno** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:42 pm

Having bought Hitchens' book, let me quote some paragraphs.

Hitchens wrote: But both in theory and in practice, religion uses the innocent and the defenseless for the purpose of experiment. By all means let an observant Jewish adult male have his raw-cut penis placed in the mouth of a rabbi. (That would be legal at least in New York.) By all means let grown women who distrust their clitoris or their labia have them sawn away by some other wretched adult female. By all means let Abraham offer to commit suicide to prove his devotion to the Lord or his belief in the voices he was hearing in his head. By all means let devout parents deny themselves the succor of medicine when in accute pain and distress. By all means--for all I care--let a priest sworn to celibacy be a promiscuous homosexual. By all means let a congregation that believes in whipping out the devil choose a new grown-up sinner each week and lash him until he or she bleeds. By all means let anyone who believes in creationism instruct his fellows during lunch breaks. But the conscription of the unprotected child for these purposes is something that even the most dedicated secularist can safely describe as sin.

Hitchens wrote:
Many religions now come before us with ingratiating smirks and outspread hands, like an unctuous merchant in a bazaar. They offer consolation and solidarity and uplift, competing as they do in a marketplace. But we have a right to remember how barbarically they behaved when they were strong and were making an offer that people could not refuse. And if we chance to forget what that must have been like, we have only to look at those states and societies where the clergy still has the power to dictate its own terms.
The pathetic vestiges of this can still be seen, in modern societies, in the efforts made by religion to secure control over education, or to exempt itself from tax, or to pass laws forbiding people to insult its omnipotent and omniscient deity, or even his prophet.

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:01 pm

I am having some problems now and will be away for a while. Astro, I hope you are better.

I want to pay taxes to heal people and not to kill people.

Post by **garyb** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:02 pm

hitchins is the one who called for the iraq invasion. there, i've said it again. he worries about those things but is for mass murder. at the bohemian grove he participates in a human sacrifice ritual(mock). couldn't you find a better hero/standard bearer?

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:04 pm

(response to hitchin's first paragraph)
well, I'm not sure if generlizing localized examples is a strong argument, although the examples are quite disturbing. There are plenty of religion gone wrong moments, and of course many instances where religion (not just christianity) really help people square up and get their lives together. And I'm talking basics, like strangers finding comfort in a church (where everything is familiar), a busy worker finding peace of mind through zazen, etc.. You just have to keep you mind open. I'm not saying religion has to work for everyone, but it you can't deny the fact that it really does work in a positive way, for some. (if they reach wher ever it is they want to reach) Which I find is no problem at all, if it works for them.

To build on what braincell was saying though, alot of the times it seems to me that it's a bad mixture of uneducated people relying on a religious world view, is when things tend to go wrong. There is a very defined group of people who get really caught up in a religion, become an extremist, and just get all weird.. I think all religions have these fanatics..

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:08 pm

Kensugro,

A lot is two words. Can you please comment on national health insurance in Japan?

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:58 pm

ah, thnx a lot. lol btw, you're having problems? Is everything alright?

Anyway, the health insurance in Japan (now that I've in the US for a couple of years) is awesome. Not that I see any direct relationship with the topic, but not too many people think much about the basic health insurance in Japan. The insurance is government run, and the insurance card is almost like standard ID, like the social security card. It works well, I don't think most people are aware of how it works, it just works. You just go to a doctor, he checks your card, and you're done. Also, going to a doctor in Japan is much MUCH easier than in the US. No primary care physician referrals necessary. You can have one, but you can also go directly to any doctor. In most cases, you can just go and be looked at. There's also no "in network" or "out of network" thing, because there are no networks. This all applies to dental care as well. You can get your wisdom tooth knocked out for less than $40 after insurance is applied, and that's how much you pay at the cashier..

Private health care insurances also do exist, and earn big bucks. You can buy plans to cover hospitalizing, cancer and other terminal disease, and death. Women also have great benefits for buying private health insurance for obvious reasons.

Of course, I can go on and on about health insurance, taxing, the war, blah blah.. but again, I don't see how it relates to religion.

Post by **hubird** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:06 pm

hm, would large font styles convince me more than normal ones?