God is not great: How religion poisons everthing

[Liquid Len]

An astonishing segment was where the author describes a war on Earth, as well as the firmament, where humans and Gods were on both sides ! It was Nuclear !! They described exactly what a mushroom cloud looked like, and how the trees were bent over. This took place north of India in the Gobi desert 5000 years ago. Funny thing, when archeologists dug down to where the land level once was, they found charcoalized soil,

OT :
I remember that, in the movie Chariots of the Gods. It was the kind of documentary that you take with a grain of salt, but no denying some of the very unusual facts that were pointed out. Of more interest to me was the SOUNDTRACK of that movie - kind of weird spooky peruvian jazz music (or that's how I would describe it, according to my limited knowledge). Anyone else ever listen to that? Last year I found the CD for sale on a website that sold monster paraphernalia for halloween.

[kensuguro]

hehe, stardust's life within the bounds of theory of information (as in bio informatics?) is very interesting. Not that it makes life quantifiable, or anything of a solid nature, but it still puts life itself into a framework that somehow makes sense. It links life to human heritage, which in this case, is the amount of information human beings hold as an entire species. Life is lost, but the information remains withint he species in one form or the other. So in a sense, life is about taking raw input, processing it, and then passing it on to the remaining population. It's hard to say if life or spirits re-incarnate, but information sure lives on. There's a ring of truth in that. (from my personal interpretation)

Gary's input on dimensions is interesting also. Religion and the "other " dimension has always been an interesting combo. I don't really buy the "third eye" thing too much, although it makes logical sense. But anyway, the 4th dimension really makes sense. Only, the problem with people in the nth dimension trying to percieve the n+1 dimension is that most likely, it's impossible to comprehend. This definitely has something to do with religion, but I don't think it's all there is. Dimension issues have more scientific, mathematical implications than ethical, consceptual implications that religion has.

But the dimension issue also closely connects to what we do, as artists, because often times our role overlaps with what the shamans do. Crossing over to the "other" side, and showing others what the world could be like, how to highten the senses, and how to percieve things beyond the "regular" realm. Religion may do that, but to an extent, art definitely does that too.

Tieing the two concepts together, it makes sense to say that since art is a product of human creativity, derived from the human heritage, then it's a part of what re-incarnates. In this view, art is a big part of the information that is held within the human species wide knowledge base, and is passed on (re-incarnated) from generation to generation. And if life is the portion that re-incarnates, then art is life.

[alfonso]

Just a small contribution on the word "religion".

It's a Latin word: religio = way of life.

In Rome you can find a very particular round temple called "Pantheon". It is a temple for "all the gods", where people coming from any place could worship their own gods. What was ruling society was the "roman right", an extremely advanced set of laws based on equity that is still the basis of modern right, accepted by all the citizens of the time, where nothing supernatural is mentioned, thus giving a strong sense of unity and protection for everyone had the status of citizen.

It's still a lesson.

[Neil B]

[BingoTheClowno]

according to einstein, E=MC2, or more simply energy=mass(times a really big number) spirit=stuff

Why stop there? With that logic we can safely assume that monkeys=bananas.

sorry, but in a 4-50 dimensional UNIverse, nothing happens, noone dies. just because you only see 3 dimensions and ONE POINT of the fourth always moving forward to the next point, the phenomonological world seems to exist. it's mathematically provable to be an illusion, and by definition, this is easy to prove, but it's too much trouble to prove it in type(print). still, i'll go quickly over it.

Are you serious about this? Are you saying that you are an illusion? That you don't realy exist?

if you possesed the organ of sight needed to see in four dimensions you'd see the physical connection between you and everything else, and you'd see that you aren't even you, you are a part of the whole, of which no part is dispensible. THIS is where morality comes from(since you and i are really the same creature, it is insane for me to cause you harm, because then i'm harming myself!). you'd SEE that when you touch something, you're always connected directly to it. this is where ancestor worship and ideas like voodoo come from (a nail clipping never seperates from the owner, it just ooozes off onto the floor... )

Is there anything else that's THERE, where "morality comes from"? I suspect there could be a bit of psychosis in THERE? I can't tell, I don't "posses the needed organ of sight"..

[Liquid Len]

Are you serious about this? Are you saying that you are an illusion? That you don't realy exist?

...
Is there anything else that's THERE, where "morality comes from"? I suspect there could be a bit of psychosis in THERE? I can't tell, I don't "posses the needed organ of sight"..

Calm down, this is noncontroversial math and physics. True, since it is very new math and physics, major revisions may be possible. But from what we can tell, the earth doesn't really go around the sun. It moves forward in 4-d space time (and the gravity of earth bends space-time). I don't understand this stuff too well, it's difficult to form a mental picture.

Think of dropping a pebble in a still pond. The ripples start at a certain point in time, and get bigger as time progresses. If you mapped that out in three dimensions, with the flat surface of the pond being 2 dimensions, and time being the third, you'd get a 3-dimensional cone. If you have a burst of light that spreads out in a all directions, and add the 4th dimension of time, it creates a 4-dimensional cone. Further reading - a brief history of time and space by stephen hawkings. Who makes some interesting (though not original) speculations on the significance of discovering a theory that really 'explained everything'.

[Neil B]

Neil you made my day

Well, I'm glad I made your day Stardust, and knowing your sense of humour, I can guess which of the cartoons it was

I decided not to join in this one at all this time around because:
1. It comes around at least once per year - more often than Easter and I hate yawning for long periods.
2. I didn't have any popcorn as recommended on page 1.
3. Nothing gets answered anyway, because if there was an perfect answer, there wouldn't be the need for the discussion - the accent here is on faith or not. It's a life choice without any answers this side of death
4. People are talking about religion as opposed to faith and I tend to be very religious about going to the toilet before sleep, religious about having a good breakfast , religious about ................
5. I'm due to die soon because Braincell wants all Christians wiped off the face of the planet because they're not happy (but I'm hopeful of survival in the same way Jews and Iraqi Kurds have survived). And I have some chance of survival because I am happy. And if Braincell considers me an enemy, then I'm safe - Americans tend to kill the allies.
6. There's as much chance of getting anything sensible out of it as there is of getting any of Jimmy V's music uploaded (what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas apparently)
7. If reincarnation is real, then, having lived such a bad life this time around, I'll probably come back as a piece of coral (or an American)
8. I'm not as eloquent as others who have contributed so dramatically with long, harsh, angry postulating words, so I couldn't understand half of it (oh me of simple faith)
9. I'm packing to go on holiday
10. I agree with Braincell that there is nothing worse than unhappy, miserable Bible-bashing Christians or anyone who wants to ram there views down your throat (as opposed to sharing their point of view in a nicer manner)
This equally applies to Mormons, Jehovahs Witnesses, and especially Atheists
11. And finally, I preached on evangelism and the need to share our faith only a couple of weeks ago, so perhaps I should hide behind the furniture in case someone discovers my sermons on my website

Now I'm off on holiday in a day or 2 and I completely take back anything malicious that I've just written about atheists, Americans and everyone else.
It was intended to be in good fun and humour as I would not wish to offend anyone in the way that some of the comments I've recently read have offended me.

If others within this community have the guts to take back any of their words, it would be a nice leaving present for my holidays.
But don't worry about it - for all of you who have now stated that God doesn't exist, just like in the cartoon, I'll mess with your heads - I'll pray for you every day for the rest of my life

P.S Alfonso - I spent many years in Risk Management and Contingency Planning - If you have to make love to someone ugly, use the 2 bag technique.
A: Put one bag over her head
B to be really safe, put one over your own in case hers falls off

[BingoTheClowno]

Calm down, this is noncontroversial math and physics.

Which part? That morality comes from somewhere in 4th dimension?

Further reading - a brief history of time and space by stephen hawkings. Who makes some interesting (though not original) speculations on the significance of discovering a theory that really 'explained everything'.

I sense a mocking tone in your last sentence. You are probably regarding the the "god theory" as being the supreme theory of everything. What Stephen Hawkings refered to was the unification of 4 major theories, gravity, the strong nuclear force, the weak nuclear force, and the electromagnetic force, into one theory that many believe it could be the string theory. I guess we need to add the "theory of morality in the 4th dimension" to that.

[Liquid Len]

Which part? That morality comes from somewhere in 4th dimension?

No, the other stuff. There was other stuff, you know. Just some interesting speculation, that some types of historical theology and philosophy (energy=matter, thought=action, just for a start) have some parallels in the world of quantum physics.

I sense a mocking tone in your last sentence. You are probably regarding the the "god theory" as being the supreme theory of everything. What Stephen Hawkings refered to was the unification of 4 major theories, gravity, the strong nuclear force, the weak nuclear force, and the electromagnetic force, into one theory. I guess we need to add the "theory of morality in the 4th dimension" to that.

Then you sense wrong. There was no mocking tone whatsoever, honestly. He mentions something in the preface or foreward about there being a contradiction involved.

[Shroomz~>]

.......your one of Earth's surviving 100,000,000.
you're given the ultimatum.... Work for minimum wage as a non believer in the new 'World faith' or earn £100,000,000 per year preaching it....

[Spirit]

Backtracking a bit - Liquid Len, I also adored the "Chariots of the Gods" soundtracks, very moody and thoughtful. One of the best soundtracks ever imho.

As for Garyb's "quantum multiverse" (I think that was the gist of that post ), the multiverse is like reincarnation: If there's no communication or memory between events/worlds or lives then they may as well not exist. Each universe (or life) will be and remain totally separate and all that you can draw from it is the faith that it exists.

And Neil, don;t be too harsh in your judgment of this debate. Theological debate has a long tradition within Christianity. I think we're managing to cover huge areas and diversity in a mostly calm fashion.

[garyb]

gee, bingo, you claim to love science and yet you hate basic modern physics. so touchy....yes, monkeys are bananas, and yes, of course i don't exist, well not in the way that i experience myself anyway.

haven't you ever seen tromp l'oiel, or other optical illusions? seeing is believing but believing is BE LIE ING, so? i thought all adults knew that things aren't always what they seem....

by the way, a mathematical equation is a sentence, a logical language. in einstein's classic theory E=energy, M=mass, C=the speed of light, a very large number SO, E=MC2 is the EXACT same thing as saying(in long hand) Energy is the same as (equals) Mass multiplied by the large constant number which is the speed of light multiplied by itself. or slightliy shorter, energy equals mass. that is factual, there's no debate.

i thought science was your religion?

[BingoTheClowno]

but believing is BE LIE ING, so? i thought all adults knew that things aren't always what they seem....

That explains a lot.

[Neil B]

Hiya Spirit
Point taken, and for my sins a (what is the collective name for them??) - a plague of Jehovah's Witnesses descended on my front door this morning.

One of them was a big blonde but sorry Scope4Live - she couldn't afford the plane ticket

[BingoTheClowno]

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/ac_ ... ruths.html

Tome truths
The publication of just six anti-religious books has managed to provoke outrage from the devout - this reveals a profound insecurity.


To the annoyance of many, the alarm of some, and the satisfaction of others, the half dozen books recently published that powerfully set out the case against religion and religious beliefs - books by Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett and Michel Onfray - have all sold in large numbers. At time of writing Christopher Hitchens' excellent and comprehensive dismantling of religious pretensions is at the top of the New York Times bestseller list. Among the reasons for the large sales of these books is doubtless the desire by believers to see what the opposition is saying; but the main reason is the hunger that the undecided and the hitherto misinformed have for a clear statement, no punches pulled, of the indictment against religion.

The appearance of these books shows that the immunity of religion to forthright questioning and challenge is over, and with it its claim to automatic respect, privilege, sensitive handling and a place at the high table of politics and public life. Remember what happened to the dictators of eastern Europe in 1989: they turned out to be cardboard figures, who suddenly turned soggy and collapsed into nothing at the first dose of real opposition. A 1989 is in process of happening to religion. The hard truths spoken about it in these books and the public debate surrounding them are as genies freed from the bottle: they cannot be put back.

Half a dozen anti-religious books; what is amazing is how little, if anything, is said about the many thousands of pro-religious books published every year all round the world. The magazine Publishers Weekly reported earlier this year that the member publishing houses of the Evangelical Christian Publishers Association between them produced 13,400 new titles in the two years 2005-6 alone. This is just one segment of the religious publishing industry in just one wing of one of the world religions; the mind boggles at the extent of forests being felled for purveyance of religious doctrine, opinion, exhortation and polemic in every shade, nuance and type.

A trawl along the shelves of any major bookstore is enough to reveal the vast output of every conceivable specimen of religious view, though admittedly much of it consists of saccharine would-be uplift merely. There they are in their dozens and score and hundreds, where is the outrage, the condemnation, the complaining about this? Non-religious people simply ignore such books; they may feel contempt for them, but most grant the right of others to publish almost any kind of book (almost: there are obvious exceptions, though very few), and merely exercise their (hard-won, by our ancestors) right to ignore them.

Yet a mere half dozen anti-religious tomes have stirred up all the hornets in their nests, have offended and outraged the devout, and between them have exposed religious claims and beliefs for what they are. To me this suggests a profound insecurity among the religious. It is obvious why. They are not used to being under pressure somewhat after the fashion of a Honecker, a Ceaucesceu, a Wizard of Oz - this latter, remember, unmasked behind his screen, a knock-kneed pigeon-chested frightened little chap in his underpants, furiously pulling the levers and knobs to keep himself hidden. In the chorus of outrage at the books by Dawkins, Hitchens and others, one hears the furious squeaking of just such levers.

Perhaps that squeaking is the opening chord of a music of hope for a world too long oppressed by the superstitions of its infancy, too long forced to live whole litanies of lies, too wounded and wearied by the violence and hatred that they have loaded upon it. If so, it would be a sweet music indeed.

[/b]

[braincell]

Thanks Bingo,

You will love this:

http://www.skepticality.com


"About Skepticality
People will believe anything. Why is that?

Our podcast is here to bring you relevant, under reported current events, as well as in-depth discussions from a scientific, critical, skeptical, and humorous point of view.

In our travels we will tackle the beasts of pseudo science; the paranormal, supernatural, ufo / alien encounters, misunderstood history, astronomy, space, and overwrought legends - urban or otherwise. Welcome to Skepticality, truth in podcasting."

[Gordon Gekko]

how often do you change the oil when you cook fries?

[garyb]

i'm so sceptical, i think the sceptic sites aren't telling the truth, either.......


people like that crack me up, so bitter. the funny thing is, that the most exalted scientists are the biggest supporters of the idea of god...

so let me get this straight-if we eliminate religion and the belief in god, there'll be no more wars, greed or cruelty right? sure, i'd buy that. just look how well it worked for soviet russia and china...are you guys sure it's the belief in god that's the problem and not just some frightened, greedy, mean, diseased people? my opinion is that there's some misplaced aggression here, but do whatchalike.

[BingoTheClowno]

Damn that sounds like a really tortured soul.

Who does?

Thanks Bingo,

You will love this:

http://www.skepticality.com

I am checking it out, however I have serious doubts that this will change much the indoctrinated minds of the devout. It will maybe help reinvent the be-lie-f (as Gary puts it) doctrine to accomodate (read interpret) the latest scientific discoveries in a non-controversial way, preferably that will include absurd implications of the existence of god.

[garyb]

hey man-
stop putting words in my mouth! this is the second time.

re:
Gary wrote:

Damn that sounds like a really tortured soul.

that writer was Stardust.



are you sure you're getting all your facts straight?