Creamware - whatz your next synth ?

Eric Dahlberg · Post by **Eric Dahlberg** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:03 pm

On 2006-08-21 00:06, soul-synthesis wrote:
CWA should focus on some new powerful DSP hardware. New synths/fx are all good and well but the existing DSP is far too slow and under-powered. I would like to see things moving away from internal PCI and PCI express cards to external processing boxes (i.e. firewire/usb2).

Imagine Creamware doing something along the lines of the Focusrite Liquid Mix, where the DSP is accessible within your computer via firewire yet the hardware box also acts as a controller for the plug-ins. The great thing is they're nearly there already, all we'd be talking about it a modified ASB.

Post by **hubird** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:10 pm

On 2006-08-22 00:36, jimmypage wrote:
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http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... 31&start=0

[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2006-08-23 06:40 ]

soul-synthesis · Post by **soul-synthesis** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:08 pm

second that vote for a jupiter 8 please.

does anyone know what chips are in the asb? or are they the same as the scope cards?

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:16 am

<a href=http://www.analog.com/en/prod/0%2C%2CAD ... .html>ADSP 21262</a> opposed to 21065L on Scope boards

[ This Message was edited by: astroman on 2006-08-23 03:17 ]

Post by **garyb** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:28 am

code compatible.....

hifiboom · Post by **hifiboom** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 6:35 am

On 2006-08-22 18:30, Eric Dahlberg wrote:
On 2006-08-19 11:30, hifiboom wrote:
I`m not too much interested in these ASBs, they are nice for playing around but the Scope system is just much more flexible, and you can use your DSPs with what ever plug-in you want...
I agree with your preference for the DSP card system. Trickling products between the ASB & DSP card lines is a great way to go about it, though. This is exactly what Line 6 does, recycle the exact same algorithms into different product lines to suit different types of users, & look how well it's working for them. If anything, Creamware should be looking to recycle their algorithms even more by releasing keyboard versions (Nord keyboards all sell far better than the modules do).

Anyway, any success with the ASB line will benefit us card users. As you said in the beginning of this thread, Creamware has to find a new synth to release an ASB of & that should hopefully mean a new synth for us, too.

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[ This Message was edited by: Eric Dahlberg on 2006-08-22 18:44 ]

I absolutly agree with you, Eric...

But while releasing ASB versions(I think this is a superbe idea), they could just bring out some other new high-quality emulations.... like minimax, Pro12 and Prodyssey...
I think there are rumors about cooperation with Waldorf (http://www.stadler-electro.de/)
Maybe this is their next synth...

I`m sure their new strategy is exactly like this...

A new synth will be released as an ASB version and also as a Scope plug-in...

I also would really like to see some analogish sounding FX, like an EQ, which distorts at higher gain boosts etc.
Behaviour of analog outboard gear...(not just clipping)

I think Creamware has gained enough knowledge to build better plug-ins right now than most other companies in VA development...

Their Minimax is just a proof, how good Creamware is in their buisness....

In fact one Voice on Minimax sounds as fat as the 5-voice programs in unison mode on the Arturia Minimoog V...

hifiboom · Post by **hifiboom** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:00 am

On 2006-08-23 12:28, garyb wrote:
code compatible.....

if the new chips are code-compatible, I do not understand their strategy to not replace their Scope board line with more powerful cards....

If the new system will be extern and not as flexible as Scope boards, the new design will completly fail the Scope philosophy...

A Scope replacement card would attract all existing Scope users plus many new ones...

A new design without the flexibility maybe fails the existing Scope usercrowd...

If the new Scope is just soething like TC-Powercore and nicely integrates into a VST sequencer, I wiil not be too much interested...

decimator · Post by **decimator** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:17 am

Damn hifiboom, you're new and not accustomed to the pace at all !

Think years, the original first generation chip is nearly ten ( ? ) years old, now we are in third gen and CWA is certainly most wisely ( I really hope ) waiting for the top end, most fittest Shark for the job to be produced ( 21368 ).
Newer ASB may be ahead of Scope since it will be using those new chips ( or combination of ) with newer possibilities that can't be ported on preset chips.
Next year, I just expect massive processing power then later plugs using the fresh possibilities as they come.
But if they don't push the designs of classics clonery like John Bowen's Pro-Wave vs Prophit 5 it will be a big bore for me honestly.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:17 am

On 2006-08-24 08:00, hifiboom wrote:
...
if the new chips are code-compatible, I do not understand their strategy to not replace their Scope board line with more powerful cards...

code compatible doesn't mean plugin-replaceable (the chip), there are heavy (code) modifications required to make existing stuff run on the new Sharcs.
The 'processing code' is still executed, but doesn't take advantage of improved instructions and the 'system interfacing' part of the code MUST be rewritten.

The chip communication with the driving and controlling software is different to a very high degree. There's a paper at Analog's site about migrating from the previous generation of Sharcs - it's in no way trivial.

cheers, Tom

decimator · Post by **decimator** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:02 am

Ouch !!
An another reason to make big steps on DSP ... apes --> 2001 space odyssey, next quantum DSP

Er ... what gives for all non ( more or less supported ) CWA devices ?

Eric Dahlberg · Post by **Eric Dahlberg** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:35 pm

On 2006-08-24 08:00, hifiboom wrote:
If the new Scope is just soething like TC-Powercore and nicely integrates into a VST sequencer, I wiil not be too much interested...

The concept I mentioned earlier suggests recycling algorithms into as many different spin off products as possible. This would allow Creamware to keep releasing new products on a regular basis, just as the ASB line has done. Even though I personally only use the DSP cards & have no need for sound modules, I absolutely respect Creamware for bringing them out, even if only because they reinvigorated interest in the company so successfully. Allow me to formally apologize for any past nay-saying!

A Powercore-style VST accelerator doesn't appeal to you just as floor pedal Pod XT Live would likely not appeal to a guitarist who only records at home, but these are still viable products that appeal to a wide range of other users. We honestly sell Powercore's & UAD-1's 20:1 over Scope cards, not to mention that many Scope users still use XTC mode despite Creamware dropping support (the Defeater Key that turns a normal Scope into an XTC card is one of our best selling Creamware products).

hifiboom · Post by **hifiboom** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:20 am

Eric, exactly right...

And I really really hope that Creamware will survive...
If their strategy is to release every plug-as an ASB, its allright, if it helps them to get their money....
And they really earned it hard...

In fact those cards are totally underrated...

I just hope they come up with new synths monsters(especially for the Scope cards), because I`m sure they gained much knowledge right now over the years. And the upcoming emulations profit from this...

If I look at the situation, Creamware was not satisfied with their Miniscope as a Minimoog emulation... so they came up with the Minimax ( wich is a genious thing)
The reality is that the Miniscopes (I and II) sound more like an analog synth then for example the Arturia Minimoog V sound...
And thats the problem with many VSTis, they just have "synthetic plastic" sound.

So this card is nothing to compare with the Vstis...
It competes with the better hardware (analog or very good VA)....

I think most hardware synths cannot be replaced by a VSTi...(at least the analog synths)

So at first a price of 198€ for a plug-in sounds like much money....But if you get close to the real thing soundwise, it is really worth every penny.
At least if you consider that the same priced VSTis are no replacement for the real thing.
They are more something to play around a little bit and have fun...
(although there are also very nice sounding VSTi)

[ This Message was edited by: hifiboom on 2006-08-25 11:50 ]

Eric Dahlberg · Post by **Eric Dahlberg** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:56 am

On 2006-08-25 11:20, hifiboom wrote:
So at first a price of 198€ for a plug-in sounds like much money....But if you get close to the real thing soundwise, it is really worth every penny.

That's another good point. If the ASB's catch on, people are eventually going to realize that they can get the same synths in the Scope system for a fraction of the price, so that suddenly the cards start looking like a bargain. Of all the ASB reviews I've seen in magazines, it's almost strange that none of the reviewers have pointed this out.

sharc · Post by **sharc** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:36 am

On 2006-08-26 03:30, stardust wrote:
maybe this is because there are tons of emulations out there (VST, DSP, HW synths)

What is so special about the nth emulation of a legend, if not the price or the ease of use as a preset 'rompler'.

Yes, it would be nice to see more of the legends reborn in these forms rather than another 'already been done' synth clone to add to the dozen or so already out there. (minimoog, oddyssey, etc.)

I don't think the next CW synth has much of a chance of being a roland emulation (for legal reasons) but that still leaves plenty of other synths that so far haven't been emulated at all. You see them on the Device/Wishlist all the time. Personally, I'd like to see the OSCar done or maybe an Oberheim, or Crumar Spirit, or Elka Synthex. A Synthi would be cool too. The way I see it, Scope has lots of things going for it, but in terms of marketing it has always been strongest for synth emulations, the Noah and ASB boxes are testiment to this, so yes it would be good to see some more classic synths added to the collection.

TBH I couldn't care less about presets, other than as a initial rough guide to a synth's capabilities. I usually find I'm more productive with a synth that doesn't come with dozens of presets. As I can remember finding out when switching from BassStaion Keyboard to the rack version, lots of presets can make you lazy.

[ This Message was edited by: sharc on 2006-08-26 05:38 ]

erminardi · Post by **erminardi** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:58 am

Yeah, the possible list can be huge:

EMS Synthi A
CS 80
ARP 2600 [the big brother or Prodyssey, then easy to do...]
Oberheim four voice SEM or OBXa
OSCar
Elka Synthex
Yamaha DX7 IID [with sysex import!!! Like NI FM7 but with the special Creamware warmth...]
Korg MS20
Korg Trident
...and my wonderful Crumar DS2

petal · Post by **petal** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:40 am

It's all very interesting, and I do have a few whishes of my own, but does Creamware even have plugindevelopers hired to develop just one of the plugins that you have suggested? If I remember correctly all the developers "had to leave" Creamware and quickly found work elsewhere, most of them at the same place. These were the people with the actual plugin production experience which will be so important if and when new plugins are going to be developed by Creamware themselves.

To me it looks like they have "outsourced" all plugindevelopment, which might not be a bad thing, but it might put an end to truely wothty emulations of legendary anogue equipment, unless these new thirdparty developers find solid economic backing somewhere.

I'm not trying to kill peoples dreams here, but to me it doesn't seem realistic that we will see any new creamware-produced emulations anytime soon.
The next big step develpmentwise, within our exclusive little Scope-culture, will be a new generation of Scope-hardware, new drivers for this hardware and porting of the excisting softwarebase. Something the ASB's hopefully will make possible within the near future, which to me seems to be 1 year - 2 years at the most.

Long live Creamware - we still believe in you!
Thomas

sharc · Post by **sharc** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:17 am

Couldn't have put that better myself Petal. I agree that the development of the platform itself is the way forward. But I wouldn't be so quick to deny the possibility of more quality emulations in the near future as the platform does still have active 3rd party developers (independant from CW) capable of such projects. So strictly speaking it wouldn't be Creamware's next synth. Although, if it's good enough you never know.