bombs in london

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:22 am

On 2005-07-08 08:18, wayne wrote:
Asia is not an easy place to live at all - or have i got you wrong?

I'm not saying it's easy (life wasn't meant to be easy

), but it has certainly improved dramatically over the past 50 years.

And certainly superior to the few years of the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere.

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:26 am

The reason it is patronizing and ignorant is because we in the west do not have any right to tell other countries how to do things.

First of all, the Zimbabwe situation is very complex. It is a country borne from colonialism. Yes, the Brits again, although many European countries have colonial legacies in Africa - Belgium, Holland, Germany, Spain, France.

I am not a fan of Mugabe either. But who has been funding this man, through aid packages and other economic relations? Please look at the following link:

http://www.zimbabwesituation.com/jun9b.html

Now, any 'removal' of Mugabe would have to look at how theh removal of Saddam Hussein has taken place in Iraq. As I've said before, if you chose not to be political in Iraq you could lead a normal life - raise a family etc. Now you cannot. So please try telling an Iraqi mother who lost her child because of a trigger-happy American that everything is for her own good.

So this is what I mean when I say it's patronizing and ignorant to just say you should remove some corrupt leader in an ex-colonial state.

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:37 am

On the other hand I believe your supposed idealism leads to the situation where billions of dollars go directly into the pockets of dictators instead of the needy.

edit: I did read that link. It was a bit confused, but the gist of the more coherant parts seemed to be "no aid without accountability" To which I agree 100%.

As for Iraq, the majority of the country - certainly the south and Kurdishish north enjoy relative peace. The Kurds, so long stateless have never enjoyed such autonomy before.

Remaking states is never easy. Even a 'conventional' military liberation, such as the liberation of France during WWII comes at a huge cost to all involved. Thousands of civilians died under Allied bombs, women were raped by Allied troops, homes looted etc etc. It was commonly said in Paris in 1944/45 that the Allied forces were more demanding and arrogant than the Germans.

But I think few French would have questioned the wisdom of the action.

_________________

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Spirit on 2005-07-08 08:41 ]</font>

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:44 am

I somehow doubt the Iraqi people will mourn the departure of the invading Americans either when they are inevitably defeated...

pseudojazzer · Post by **pseudojazzer** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:14 am

On 2005-07-08 06:51, dArKr3zIn wrote:

You cannot prevent terrorism (whoever is perpetrating it). As Casper said, it makes a lot more sense to examine the root problem.

So again we come down to the root problem: economic imperialism. And ALL of us have a big part to play in that.

dArKr3zIn, i have enjoyed your ranting, some of which is very astute, but i feel that you have missed the point a little in areas - as i had until i read an article in the Times today - the article was written by an iranian middle east expert, Amir Taheri, and it pointed to the motives of these terrorists, or lack of them. I was ranting last night with friends along the same lines as you - that thier motives seem to be along the very broad lines of Anti-capitalist foreign policy - that of the uk, the us etc... our involvment in iraq etc... if it were just this then we could go some way to trying to adjust the balance and eventually, if the right people were in charge etc..., then we could bridge the rift of values between "western" society and "the rest of the world". If their motives were that simple....

First we don't actually know what the motives are of these terrorists - unlike say the IRA there is no endgame - there is no list of demands, be they political,economic or terretorial, so trying to treat the motives is REALLY HARD, becuase we don't know what they are!!! Its not quite as simple as just "economic imperialism" as you say - and even if it were - how do you change history and make it better, i suppose we just evenly distribute all wealth and be done with it!! NO - cos even then resources will never be evenly distributed, oil occurs in certain places, tea grows in certain places.... there will always be people richer than others and vice versa... we don't live in utopia - we live in a capitalist run world - it has many strenghts but also many weaknesses - without capitalism we would have our lovely scope cards and internet forums, if you are so anti capitalist then you should give up your comforts... become a sadhu!! OK, sorry, thats a bit heated, the last thing i want to do is offend but this topic is far from simple... How do we reconcile the values of those who are anti capitalist with those who are capitalist? i don't know! However, if those anti capitalists are telling me that they would like a nice car, a big house with a music studio then i cannot take them seriously - most people want these things from life - i want a new pair of headphones - does that make me evil? no, i think not, not unless three children have died in the sweat shop trying to make them... these things we should and need to change but none of it will happen over night.

Retuning to the article that i was baning on about - the point of this rant - this iranian (Amir Taheri, who i shall paraphrase) was saying that the motives of these extremists are rooted in the fundaments of thier religion - they believe that God sent out 128,000 Prophets, including Moses and Jesus and that they all failed to goad humanity onto the right path. his last effort was to send Muhammad - the last prophet with his ultimate message -Islam. With the advent of Islam all previous religions were "abrogated" (manusukh) and their followers regarded as "infidel" (kuffar) the aim of al good muslims, therefore, is to convert humanity to Islam, which regulates Man's spiritual, economic, political and social moves to the last detail. If non-muslims refuse to take this path? What is to be done by the Musilms? Well this is where we have the root of the problem... Some believe that a course of dialogue should be followed until followers of the abrogated faiths recognise their errors and convert (the view of most reasonable imams) BUT, the likes of bin Laden believe the west to be too far gone and corrupted to hear the arguments so they must be shocked into conversion through spectacular GHAZAVAT (raids) - i.e. 9/11, Madrid and now London...
Most Musilims believe the idea of uniting the world under Islam to be a dangerous anachronism, but for the extremeist that makes them just as bad as the infidel!!!

The article woke me up to a scary truth - that the motives and reasons are much deeper than just an ill feeling for our foreign policy/capitlist ways - but a clash of beliefs that both sides believe to have come from the big man in the sky - Big G!!
We must adress the Capitlaist reasons as well, for they are far from ethical in many places, but how we adress someones core beliefs without brainwashing i have no idea.

Sorry for the extended rant, i hope this doesn't cause offence to anyone, my intention is merely to inform people of what seems to be a very disturbing issue, one that i had overlooked until today. The real question is what can we do about it? What can we do to reduce these attacks bar all becoming muslim? How can we make sure that there is no ill feeling between Islam and the other religions of the world - surely a war between beliefs and ideologies cannot be "won" by either side? And finally, what can we do to limit,kurb or even stop our capitalist wrongdoings, both past and present?
I don't know but i'm gonna have a think... a big one... and i think it might leave a scar!

Cochise · Post by **Cochise** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:43 am

Happy you weren't there in the tube, pseudojazzer

pseudojazzer · Post by **pseudojazzer** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:51 am

Thanks, So am I

narly · Post by **narly** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:22 am

On 2005-07-08 08:26, dArKr3zIn wrote:
...we in the west do not have any right to tell other countries how to do things.

The west should have no interest in N.Korea's or Iran's nuclear aspirations given their historical propensity toward agression? Interesting... We should turn a blind eye to those who would irradicate Israel because that's their country/region and not mine... I don't buy it, for reasons which should be obvious. South Africa, Germany, Bosnia, China, Pakistan... there have been positive results to external influences as well as the negatives you dwell upon.

On 2005-07-08 08:26, dArKr3zIn wrote:
...if you chose not to be political in Iraq you could lead a normal life - raise a family etc. Now you cannot. So please try telling an Iraqi mother who lost her child because of a trigger-happy American...

This is blatant media driven US hatred SPIN (read CRAP). I personally resent this type of generalization and the ignorance herein which is projected as truth or even knowledge. US troops are performing a difficult task with many dangers and pitfalls. They are not performing it alone. Only because Germany, France and Russia weren't on board you presume the cause unjust. Follow the money through the UN and figure it out already.

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The direction of your energies in this matter remind me of the political strategy of the Democratic party here in the US. Are there no ideas which would lead to a better outcome? If you have nothing constructive to offer you come off as a paranoid cynic and that's all.

One could only assume you have solutions which would save us all - your criticisms of everything are so far-reaching that you must already be prepared to render a solution for all such ills in our world. Your historical knowledge is apparent, but we live in TODAY. Consider what could be done differently to bring about your Utopia.

It's a simple matter to conclude that war and corruption are wrong - we all think so. The world isn't going to just "play-nice" because the (evil?) US/West packs up and goes home (which I can only assume is atop your list of solutions). It's easy to select the West as the culprit but everyone plays a part in these situations - always have, always will. You should know this from history as well. Also you recognize that historically, there are cycles of opinion and power and environment (or whatever today's worry is). That is why a forward and constructive viewpoint is most important.

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What a waste of forum resources - I need to get a life.

...My continued hope for those experincing loss as the result of senseless violence.

Nestor · Post by **Nestor** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:24 am

On 2005-07-07 15:57, dArKr3zIn wrote:
Personally I make no distinction between western economic fascism and islamic fascism.

It's all fascism at the end of the day, which is designed to smother all human individuality, and reduce life to a functional meaningless existence.

150% with you there! It's so true!

Nestor · Post by **Nestor** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:45 am

I think that top-level-power-humanity is sick, they are psychologically ill, drunken with the illusion of power and supreme control! Something important, in the very core of human heart, is going on, much, MUCH beyond political, religious or economical problems… To kill people you don’t know, to do such a gigantic STUPIDITY!!! You MUST be ill!!! You MUST be unbalanced within yourself! You MUST be an unconscious person! Otherwise you cannot do such a thing because NOTHING can justify such act!

Every time people in the Z have spoken about politics and have tried to understand the workings of it, I have said the same thing: you cannot know what is going on, because there are two kind of politics, one for “you” which is in the news, which is accessible and knowable to you, and the hidden one, the one nobody knows ever, the one that you’ll never read in the papers…

Said that, I can discern somehow, because of the so many contradiction since this problems started, and because I know that to be Islamic it is NOT to be an idiot, that the reasons behind it all are nothing, absolutely nothing related to religion or Islamism, but to power and economical plans beyond the wildest of imaginations… I think the reasons for all those supposed terrorist attacks since the terrible eleven, and all this hype about wars, atomic bombs, etc., are nothing but a horrendous plan, a BIG benefit plan from some powerful top-level people, behind the puppets working at their service in governments!

Every time a person is killed this way, there is an average of 6 to 10 family people killed emotionally as well, and they are destroyed and can do very little, for years to come, as this terrible thing traumatizes them. All this is unbearable! ALL THIS IS UNBEARABLE, UTTERMOST UNBEARABLE!!!

Me$$iah · Post by **Me$$iah** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:47 am

Hang on. Removing the leadership of Afganistan and Iraq was the right thing to do and so would be the removal of Mgabe......I assume using force, like in the previous two countries....
Hmm bombing another land to create political change...Hmmm...now Im not sure but I think the word for that is Terrorism...

No sorry.... my bad..Its Terrorism if Al Queda or foreign government tries to affect other countries policy using violence...But if a major western power tries to change policy or government of another country it called'Speading freedom'

Invading Iraq was wrong before and even tho now 'its a fact' its still wrong..The troops should leave, and apologise for the trouble theve caused there

Terrorism is terrorism by any name and all governments are equally likey to get involved in it

remember the old saying about power and corruption

-Me$$iah

Me$$iah · Post by **Me$$iah** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:51 am

Also Zimbabwe used to be called Rhodesia..
this wasnt just a name. It was given to the country to celebrate the life of Cecil Rhodes
A truly powerful man in his day, that still wields power by proxy today.ie.Clinton went to Oxford Uni in England, on a Cecil Rhodes scholarship, as have many other political and business leaders

narly · Post by **narly** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 10:43 am

On 2005-07-08 10:47, Me$$iah wrote:
..The troops should leave, and apologise for the trouble theve caused there

Apologize to whom? To 8.5 million Iraqis and their families who have taken action to shape a fledgling democracy?

Withdrawal now would be a slap in the face (or death) to every citizen risked life and limb on the belief they could finally have a voice in their future - Those who stood to be counted in spite of the danger. Sorry, I think they have the majority.

Maybe they could apologize to the idealist zealot cowards who have to blow themselves up (along with all bystanders in a 30 foot radius) just to be able to express their stance on the situation. That'd be very helpful.

If you are so inclined to distill that the nation is awash in blood from the media reports of a carbombing every other day then I can see how you would arrive at your opinion. Look, even a broken (analog) clock is right 2 times a day - when is the last time you were offered a positive story from the media on Iraq? Did you ever notice they don't? There must be <i>some</i> good things happening there. But not according to your media outlets - everything is bad and wrong with it because it is the US - it is GWB - they are powerful - they must be abusing that power. The conspiracy types are so gullible being led around by what the media spews to further it's own agenda and importance - all thinking they are the next Bob Woodward. Conspiracy at the levels assumed would have leaks all over the place and be uncovered easily. Some things need to taken at face value and move on with your life. Stop spinning your wheels.

pseudojazzer · Post by **pseudojazzer** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 10:44 am

On 2005-07-08 10:47, Me$$iah wrote:

Invading Iraq was wrong before and even tho now 'its a fact' its still wrong..The troops should leave, and apologise for the trouble theve caused there

I totally agree that it was wrong etc. they shouldn't be there... but they cannot now just up and leave - the country doen't have a powerful enough army itself yet - if all the troops were to go you leave a huge vacuum and it would more than likely be filled by the worng people - at least our troops are trying to keep the peace (yes they fail - a lot - but i think its better than letting the insurgents run amok). There must be a way to get them out of there but it will have to be over a period of time.. hopefully that period will be short.. and hopefully they will apologise for the atrocities they have committed - but i doubt it.

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 10:53 am

Spinning? That's funny, really.

More than 50 people died here in London yesterday, and people are hysterical. No doubt that's a lot of people, and a tragedy.

However, I'm pointing to the scale of the deaths of civilians in Iraq - it's in the tens of thousands.... are you trying to tell me that all these people didn't die and it's just a fabrication to discredit the war?

And please tell me why highlighting the plight of these civilian deaths is evil liberal spin against the poor American government that's trying to bring peace to the world?

And I'm sorry, but if the ethos of Abu Ghraib prison is the alternative, then I have a feeling that the vast majority of Iraqis would take Saddam Hussein every time.

Read up a bit on the crusades. The Islamic world has a damn good reason for hating the west. Do you think Iraqis are grateful to the Americans? Do you think they would rather be ruled by a redneck monkey than even someone like Saddam? You clearly do not understand these people. This is part of the whole problem.

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 10:58 am

Psuedojazzer - While I acknowledge that a lot of muslims are fed a lot of brainwashing bullshit too, I don't think you can lump the whole of Islam into the same bracket. Look at the Sufis for example (if you're not familiar with Sufism, check out the works of Hazrat Inayat Khan sometime.. very accessible and beautiful works). Also I've met countless muslims who share the same dilemmas in everyday life as any christian... believe me, many many muslims do not at all fall into the non-drinking, clean-living lifestyle they should do. But then, how many of us in the west follow the christian doctrine except when it suits us?

The problem is when you mix religion and politics - we had the same situation in the west when the Church held absolute power. Greed for power uses whatever tools it can in order to fulfil its ambitions.

You can feed people any lies you want if you understand their personal weaknesses. It doesn't matter if the propoganda you feed them with is Islamic, democratic or communist.

ElectronicaDub · Post by **ElectronicaDub** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 11:55 am

I read this on al Jazeera:

Iraqis, who face bombings on a daily basis, have condemned the attacks in London saying they go against Islamic teachings; but many blame US and British policies for the rise in extremism worldwide.

Attacks in Baghdad currently average about 20 a day, including bombings and shootings. Car bombs average eight a week, down 50% from last month, according to a senior US military officer.

"Muslims oppose attacks targeting civilians, whether they are Muslims or non-Muslims," said Shaikh Abd al-Ghafur al-Samarrai, during Friday prayers at the Sunni Umm al-Qura mosque in Baghdad.

Shaikh Jalaleddin al-Saghir, addressing a sermon at the Shia Baratha mosque in Baghdad, said on Friday: "Britain, which has recently opened the door to former Saddam [Hussein] loyalists, must now see that the terror plaguing the people of Iraq can spread into the subway stations, resulting in this disgraceful massacre."

Another preacher, Shaikh Zakaria al-Tamimi, speaking at the Ibn Taimiyah mosque - home to the Salafist orthodox brand of Sunni Islam - wondered why the world would not react to the daily killing of innocent people in Iraq, just as it did to the latest London bombings.

"This is because Iraqis are like chicken and nobody cares about the killing of a chicken, but the British are the lords of this world."

In the Shia city of Najaf, in southern Iraq, Shaikh Sadreddin al-Kubbanji condemned the London bombings; but he accused British Prime Minister Tony Blair of being too quick in blaming Muslims for them.

"These reckless comments increase the hate towards Muslims," he said.

Post by **garyb** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:15 pm

On 2005-07-08 04:59, Spirit wrote:
Well, academically interesting I suppose, but hardly a real-world plan of action or solution. Is there anything concrete that goes along with such sentiment ?

Spirit, i agree, not to helpful in the "real" world. as i said, this will take a different way of looking at things and most are completely brainwashed. look for more suffering to come.

narly · Post by **narly** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:22 pm

On 2005-07-08 11:53, dArKr3zIn wrote:
Spinning? That's funny, really.

In the context which I replied, to your implication of the motives of American soldiers, Yes. I think you're all too willing to assimilate media-hype as your truth. Your comments are insulting.

On 2005-07-08 11:53, dArKr3zIn wrote:
More than 50 people died here in London yesterday, and people are hysterical. No doubt that's a lot of people, and a tragedy.

That is not in dispute - my sentiments to that loss were clearly stated and meant truthfully. Again, nice attempt to spin. Is there a course of study for that, or what?

On 2005-07-08 11:53, dArKr3zIn wrote:
...it's in the tens of thousands.... are you trying to tell me that all these people didn't die and it's just a fabrication to discredit the war?

But, you stated it was 100,000 earlier today??? Source, please...? And how many at the hands of cowardice attacks on Iraqi freedom from "insurgents?" (Oh, yes - I forgot those are US's fault too) Fabrication? That's your choice of words - I never put that light on it. Again, no one has disputed that innocents have died - you could be respectful and start the count with those in US on 9/11/2001. No one can deny the forces opposing in Iraq are the same as responsible for 9/11, Madrid, London. Those who died prior under Saddam Hussein's regime numbered in the 100's of thousands, yet you continue to proclaim for all Iraqi's that they'd prefer his rule. Amazing! Turn down the spin - it discredits your valid points.

On 2005-07-08 11:53, dArKr3zIn wrote:
...please tell me why highlighting the plight of these civilian deaths is evil liberal spin against the poor American government that's trying to bring peace to the world?

Since you like historical contextual references you know that we all are preached the savagry that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were. Hundreds of thousands killed, burned and maimed. At the time, the alternative to bring the agression to an end was a ground assault on Japan. Best estimates put the casualty figure for such an advance at up to 1M. What was the right move? Again, NO ONE likes the idea, but threat and agression will not abate on their own and must be met with opposition or you choose to be overrun. (BTW, it was your choice to pair the words "evil" and "liberal," not mine

)

On 2005-07-08 11:53, dArKr3zIn wrote:
...if the ethos of Abu Ghraib prison is the alternative, then I have a feeling that the vast majority of Iraqis would take Saddam Hussein every time.

It's not and you know it. The actions of a few at Abu Ghraib, or where ever, at any time are vociferously deplored by Americans everywhere. Once again, you prefer to adopt media-hype as your truth. A dangerous source of realities. Were such unfortunate events as widespread as the conspiracy theorists suggest, I estimate the cover would've been blown wide open long ago. Your self-proclaimed saviours in the media - the only apparent purveyors of truth in your world - have a little too firm grasp of your mindset, I fear.

On 2005-07-08 11:53, dArKr3zIn wrote:
The Islamic world has a damn good reason for hating the west. Do you think Iraqis are grateful to the Americans? Do you think they would rather be ruled by a redneck monkey than even someone like Saddam? You clearly do not understand these people. This is part of the whole problem.

a. If that's the case then you admit their agression is rooted in ancient fact. Is it then a damn good reason to kill innocents? Are you suggesting all of Islam is ready to take up arms to irradicate the infidels?

b. Yes - I believe 8.5 million Iraqis who placed themselves in jeopardy to have a voice in their government stand testament to their gratitude.

c. The 'redneck-monkey' has only stated the interest in giving them the opportunity to rule themselves. Childish, inflammatory remarks driven, once again, by media-hype.

d. Do they understand me? I don't think they do - but they're willing to launch unprovoked attacks against people like me. (Please note that as I speak of "they" I am not equating this with Islam - I speak only of those who are taking such rash actions, regardless their nationality or religion). There have been no opportunity for negotiations here - this movement is not interested in credit, discussion, demands, objectives. Just death. This is irrational hatred and no one should be a victim to that.

Post by **garyb** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:30 pm

here's a suggestion, spend ALL of the money that the g8 powers use for their militaries on making life nice for as many people as possible, for free and for fun and let's see what kind of world we live in after ten years of that.......

not a real possibility or anything, just some rhetoric......