violin simulation (?) attempt

bosone · Post by **bosone** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 2:25 am

<a name="planetz-file"></a><a href="http://www.alchemystudio.it/mp3/Paganin ... .mp3"><img src="/forums/images/listen_icon.gif" border="0" alt=" Song"> Song</a> <a name="planetz-tag"></a>Genre: classical <a name="planetz-tag"></a>Uses: Pulsar Effects copyright © 2003 Matteo Bosi _____________________________________ this is the incipit of Paganini 15th Capriccio, played by my "brand new" emu ultra proteus.
i entered the note with keyboard, and then worked like a mad with picth bend and realtime CC, to control the attack and other sound parameters.
i used only ultra proteus and pulsar masterverb.
how much this seem "real"?

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 7:00 am

Impressive result. Sounds exceptionally real to me. In fact so real that I would have said that it sounds like someone learning to play a violin - but they need a few more lessons.

bosone · Post by **bosone** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 7:48 am

actually, i'm really at my first lesson of violin sequencing!!!

i liked your comment, expecially because under this short track there are no hyper-expansive akai libraries... but only a old expander! (well, everyone said me that the samples from emu proteus 2 were really cool, and they were right!)
if i have time, i think that the following will be some piece from a bach cello suite, just to train myself a little more with this techniques...

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:07 am

I'd be very interested to hear the result. I'm very intersted in this at the moment especially because I have just bought a string sample library and am expecting delivery in a couple of days

I'm very keen to get the sort of expression you've managed to capture here...

bosone · Post by **bosone** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:27 am

if you think it can help i can post you the cakewalk or midi file of my project.
basically, i worked on the following parameters (thanks to the emu proteus synthesis engine):

note velocity - more velocity mean more loudness but also a brighter tone (there is a lowpass filter controlled by velocity)

expression - no need to comment!

there is CC everytime, under the lenght of every note. this time this CC really deserve the name "expression"!

attack time - i used a dedicated controller to shorten or lenghten the attack time. in this way i'm able to fake legato, for example by make the attack longer and by overlapping to following notes

sample start time - with a controller i'm albe to decide "from which point" the sample will start to play: this is useful because, during legato for example, you don't want to hear the "bowing attack", but only the sustained note.

pitch bend: this is the most tricky, used to simulate slides between adjacent note. i worked using my poor hears and "by heart", but it was important to have a real mp3 track played by a real violinist, to listen how he "treats" the notes. pitch bending was set to the classical +/- 2 semitones.

vibrato (mod wheel): an sine LFO rounted to pitch provides the classical vibrato sound, but i didn't overused it, just on the "most meaningful" notes, to add an extra, sublte, expression.

this was really my very first attempt to work with so many parameters...

BTW, which string sample library did you bought? i have the "advanced orchestra compact edition", but it is absolutely not worth buying... nearly useless, apart the percussions and the string combo...

_________________
Listen to my music at
http://www.alchemystudio.it

[ This Message was edited by: bosone on 2003-07-22 09:29 ]

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 11:02 am

Phew ! That's a whole lot of parameter tweaking there. Perhaps when I get my sample CD I will try something like this and see how it compares ? But I doubt I'd be able to do so much... Putting your MIDI file into the sample strings sound could give an interesting result though.

I decided to get the Garritan Strings (Akai version).

The string sound I really like is the detuned scraping fiddle sound - but I'm not expecting that from Garritan.

[ This Message was edited by: Spirit on 2003-07-22 12:03 ]

Thalamus · Post by **Thalamus** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 3:04 pm

Wow, this is very impressive, bosone...

The actuentations (spelled wrong, i know) is pretty strong. It sounds like there is a person behind the perfomance, not just a sample playing.

I give you 10 for your attempts (and patience!

)

But I think you'll grow old before finishing your symphony

_________________
Yours truely

Noah Laux
----------
http://www.thalamusic.dk


[ This Message was edited by: Thalamus on 2003-07-22 16:07 ]

mr swim · Post by **mr swim** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 6:05 pm

Well done - you've done a good job . . . but I have to say that the samples themselves sound pretty tinny - and I don't think there's much anyone could do with that.

One thing to try would be to take away quite a lot of the high end and boost the lower end - violins can be pretty meaty, you know !

Keep us informed of any improvements, experiments, etc.

Cheers

eliam · Post by **eliam** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:23 pm

I must say it is a good try, but I could not qualify it as realistic. I believe it to be partly because of the samples themselves, but also because of the constant "pumping" of the sustained notes. A violinist never does that unless he specifically wants this effect, but it this case, it is strange and gives me the impression that the player drops his bow and grabs it back. The attack at 0:07 is not convincing.
I know something of the difficulty to program "realistic" performances with samples... It is tedious indeed, but I encourage you to keep on keeping on!

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 9:30 pm

It's very good for a normal sample playback synth, tho eliam is right about the strange bowing actions. I can especially feel the sort of 'mismatch' cuz I play erhu, a chinese version of the violin.

Anyhow, 1 kind of bowing action that the performance misses is a flat bowing with equial power from the start of the bow to the end of the bow. Also, the transition from left to right (direction) can also be smoother. The way it is right now, it sounds like the player is alternating bow directions for every note. And even by alternating, the volume and tone should be equal, when going for the "flat" bowing effect. Which translates to what the western world calls legato, I think. I haven't learned violin so I wouldn't know exactly.

Sorry to sound a bit harsh, but I think if you knew some of these points, then you could go for a better performance. Always think of the bow, and how it's moving.

[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2003-07-22 22:34 ]

paulrmartin · Post by **paulrmartin** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 10:34 am

Here's a tip about violin programming:

Use 2 channels because, as you know, violinists sometimes play an open note while playing on another string. That other string is where pitch bends happen. The pitch bend does not affect the open string so that's why you need the violin to be on two separate MIDI channels.

Hope this helps you.

_________________
Paul R. Martin - Are we listening?

[ This Message was edited by: paulrmartin on 2003-08-02 08:51 ]

zenda · Post by **zenda** » Fri Aug 01, 2003 9:54 pm

What impressive work ... and what impressive feedback.