Please help!
I have been agonizing over my decision to get a proper sound card for ***live*** performance. I am very interested in the Luna II. I won't be needing this card for recording, or home studio - it will be completely dedicated toward live performance.
Basically, the whole setup will consist of 2 vocalists singing over the top of sequenced tracks (Mind you, some of this will be done on the fly using Ableton Live and/or Muzys - both of which allow for some psuedo-improvisation of track arrangements.) Also, one of the singers will be playing a keyboard along with the tracks.
I have been considering getting the Luna and doing all mixing and DSP through the PC. But I am afraid of any crashes on stage, and so I have also considered getting a dedicated mixer and rackmount multi effects unit and triggering FX programs with midi. This way, in a crash, I could have a cheap sequencer/synth to fall back on while the DAW reboots, and microphones and DSP will still be available during the downtime.
Do you think the Luna is good for my purposes? Are there other valid reasons for getting the card for live performance? Or am I fooling myself, and should stick to dedicated offline mixing? Dare I ask for suggestions for an alternate sound card if I go with the offline alternative?
All feedback much appreciated! ~Mark
Do I *really* need a Luna II?
Hi Mark - and wellcome to the forum 
SFP (the uni-software for all Creamware cards) is quite stable in a good PC. I am not shure exactly, what you want the Luna to do for you. If you want the singer to play keyboard with Creamware synthesizers, you should not expect a lot of voices on the synth with only 3 DSPs. You can do live mixing with it, but if you run a lot of channels you may have to be quick with your mouse. Without controllerhardware/software, I wouldn't do it with a "moving" mix. If you want a "set and leave"-mix without to much manual adjustments, I think it can work out fine.
But try and come with more detailed info on, what you want - number of channels, and processor heavy effects (reverbs are heavy).
SFP (the uni-software for all Creamware cards) is quite stable in a good PC. I am not shure exactly, what you want the Luna to do for you. If you want the singer to play keyboard with Creamware synthesizers, you should not expect a lot of voices on the synth with only 3 DSPs. You can do live mixing with it, but if you run a lot of channels you may have to be quick with your mouse. Without controllerhardware/software, I wouldn't do it with a "moving" mix. If you want a "set and leave"-mix without to much manual adjustments, I think it can work out fine.
But try and come with more detailed info on, what you want - number of channels, and processor heavy effects (reverbs are heavy).
I can't imagine needing more than 5 analogue signals to go through the mixer. All other sounds will be generated within the software sequencer (in this case, Ableton Live and/or Muzys.) I dont imagine too much volume level tweaking, but I am *very* interested in enabling and changing FX programs and possibly params as well.
The thing that attracted me to the Creamware stuff was to run live analog signals (mic, etc.) at zero latency through the mixer and apply some FX. It would be very cool to have good limiting for each singer and to apply effects like chorus, flange, delay and yes, definately reverb. But for two singers I can't imagine needing too many effects. But effective limiting and clean (not grainy) reverb are very important to me.
~Mark
The thing that attracted me to the Creamware stuff was to run live analog signals (mic, etc.) at zero latency through the mixer and apply some FX. It would be very cool to have good limiting for each singer and to apply effects like chorus, flange, delay and yes, definately reverb. But for two singers I can't imagine needing too many effects. But effective limiting and clean (not grainy) reverb are very important to me.
~Mark
Hi there,
I purchased my Luna II two years ago and have been very pleased with it. In either a "live"setup or as a recordingdevice it has been great but I found myself running out of dsp pretty soon, so only three months later I purchased a Pulsar to go with it so I now have a little more power to spare on 'bigger' projects. If you say you'll need a couple of fx simulatenously and maybe a synth or something I think you'd better look at a pulsar instead of luna since the pulsar carries 6 dsp's instead of the luna's 3.
HTH
Greetz
I purchased my Luna II two years ago and have been very pleased with it. In either a "live"setup or as a recordingdevice it has been great but I found myself running out of dsp pretty soon, so only three months later I purchased a Pulsar to go with it so I now have a little more power to spare on 'bigger' projects. If you say you'll need a couple of fx simulatenously and maybe a synth or something I think you'd better look at a pulsar instead of luna since the pulsar carries 6 dsp's instead of the luna's 3.
HTH
Greetz
Hello Exit Zero,
I think you should know your Luna card very well, before you carry it on to the stage. I have this card for a few years now, and find it very unreliable, in different setups. It is a fascinating but complex product, I really have this love/hate relationship with it. At home I can live with it's whims, but I defenitely never would take it on stage. Maybe there are some users out there who have the ideal configuration and rely on it when gigging, who knows!
I think you should know your Luna card very well, before you carry it on to the stage. I have this card for a few years now, and find it very unreliable, in different setups. It is a fascinating but complex product, I really have this love/hate relationship with it. At home I can live with it's whims, but I defenitely never would take it on stage. Maybe there are some users out there who have the ideal configuration and rely on it when gigging, who knows!
i fyou play live take a ups that will power you comuter and monito for at least 15 minutes. power problems are sure to happen when large amounts of amplifiers and lighting equipment are plugged in by people that don't know anything about circuit breakers or fuses. also save your project often while making last minute changes before the show. don't load any devices during the show. i have found that this is when sfp crashes the most(my experience anyway). if sfp crashes you know the card will not(the os for the sharc chips is very solid) don't close down sfp unless a delay of some othe effect gets stuck and you have no way to control it outside of sfp.
j9k
j9k
I think bringing any type of electronic equipment to live situations puts an extra strain on them. There will probably be differences in temperature and humidity during the transportation. There is the risk that equipment may be dropped or that someone may spill beer in it or that it will be stolen when nobody is looking. I don't see the point of performing sequenced music live. Why don't you just use a small multitrack recorder?
I only listen to electronic music these days. All my life when I mention to someone that I am musician the question is inevitable "Are you in a band?". I am not in a band because I make music the new way, by sequencing and recording. It's like painting audio. Think of how ridiculous it would be to go to a stinky nightclub to watch an artist paint a picture. Painting takes time and is solitary. The same as making modern music. If electronic musicians feel they must show people something they ought to hook up with animators or be animators. Animation is the only legitimate way to showcase electronic music IMHO, also makers of music software and animation programs ought to make hybrid programs to link music and art. ANIMUSIC had to invent their own software to link MIDI and computer generated animation:
http://www.animusic.com/
This is exactly the type of forward thinking I am generally not seeing from software companies, musicians, artists and performers. In short most people go through life with blinders on. Tradition = Boredom. Why do late night shows have exactly one musical guest at exactly the same time and on every show. If they don't get a guest they would have to scramble at the last minute to book somebody, anybody. A friend suggested to me that if they didn't have a musical guest the comedy writers would have to do more work and they would demand more pay. Why are things always done the way we have done them in the past? We should all ask ourselves this question.
http://www.animusic.com/
This is exactly the type of forward thinking I am generally not seeing from software companies, musicians, artists and performers. In short most people go through life with blinders on. Tradition = Boredom. Why do late night shows have exactly one musical guest at exactly the same time and on every show. If they don't get a guest they would have to scramble at the last minute to book somebody, anybody. A friend suggested to me that if they didn't have a musical guest the comedy writers would have to do more work and they would demand more pay. Why are things always done the way we have done them in the past? We should all ask ourselves this question.
I see what you're saying, and with all due respect to your valid opinion, I think that there are some amazing electronic live shows that are cropping up. Originally, it was just groups like Orbital, Orb, Underworld, and the like that played live, and their shows were awesome!
But they had so much equipment to haul around to get everything to work that there was no time or energy left to give to the audience.
Or you're richard james and could give half a shit, just plink buttons on his laptop while giant teddy bears prance around the stage.
As much as they irritate me at time, Chemical Brothers really opened up what a live show CAN be. I've seen them play pretty unspectacular shows as well, but they (and Underworld too I guess) just knew how to give that energy to an audience.
The whole animator thing I'm not so much on. Yes animation kicks ass, and yes, electronic music makes animation one notch cooler when done right, but listening to music live is very much like seeing a play vs going to a movie. They both have their strong suits:
In a movie you can go places that you would never be able to go to because of the restrictions of the stage and have tools to extend ones suspension of disbelief, but on stage you have a direct flow of energy between artist and audience which is more raw than pristine.
An amazing show (and I'm sure we all have our favorites -mine being Lamb at [what used to be] Aerospace in Seattle) has much less to do with the music as singers always sound more hoarse, the music not as tight and pronounced as on the album, etc., but there's this link that you get to share with the musicians which you can only imagine when listening from a CD or record.
Electronic music itself has been pretty boring for the past couple of years as the DJs have the nightclub thing locked up and most electronic musicians can't afford the proper gear to travel with some semblance of their rig, but it can and is being done more and more to great affect.
This is all to say that as a musician on stage, you will have to rely on certain measures of assistance to keep the energy up and the performance as smooth as possible. Bands, having different requirements on stage, utilize sound engineers, roadies to tune their guitars, etc. Electronic folk require all their gear synced up and left on for about an hour before they go on (in it's computer based). Depending on whether it's one person or a group, there will also be the need for multiple hands to make sure everything goes. But even presequenced stuff can be manipulated realtime with whatever influence the audience and the artist(s) share at that given venue. And to that end, I see the Creamware cards (in a well built/configured system) being an awesome tool for live shows, be it for the purposes of a mixing desk, a synth, an effects processor, a reliable platform to run other progs on, or what have you.
And very few modern electronic musicians go on stage without some type of presequenced material (it could even be in an old AKAI sampler or --heaven forfend-- a sack of records) or at least little clips with which to sequence in Live or something like that. Because otherwise people would have to spend like $1000s on getting people and controllers to hit little plinks or whatever for the 58 tracks they used in layering their sounds.
I think the Luna may be underpowered unless one is just doing mixing and routing (which is pretty much what the Luna was designed for). A Pulsar II or Scope card (obviously) would be better for tasks beyond such basic tasks.
My $.02
Sam
But they had so much equipment to haul around to get everything to work that there was no time or energy left to give to the audience.
Or you're richard james and could give half a shit, just plink buttons on his laptop while giant teddy bears prance around the stage.
As much as they irritate me at time, Chemical Brothers really opened up what a live show CAN be. I've seen them play pretty unspectacular shows as well, but they (and Underworld too I guess) just knew how to give that energy to an audience.
The whole animator thing I'm not so much on. Yes animation kicks ass, and yes, electronic music makes animation one notch cooler when done right, but listening to music live is very much like seeing a play vs going to a movie. They both have their strong suits:
In a movie you can go places that you would never be able to go to because of the restrictions of the stage and have tools to extend ones suspension of disbelief, but on stage you have a direct flow of energy between artist and audience which is more raw than pristine.
An amazing show (and I'm sure we all have our favorites -mine being Lamb at [what used to be] Aerospace in Seattle) has much less to do with the music as singers always sound more hoarse, the music not as tight and pronounced as on the album, etc., but there's this link that you get to share with the musicians which you can only imagine when listening from a CD or record.
Electronic music itself has been pretty boring for the past couple of years as the DJs have the nightclub thing locked up and most electronic musicians can't afford the proper gear to travel with some semblance of their rig, but it can and is being done more and more to great affect.
This is all to say that as a musician on stage, you will have to rely on certain measures of assistance to keep the energy up and the performance as smooth as possible. Bands, having different requirements on stage, utilize sound engineers, roadies to tune their guitars, etc. Electronic folk require all their gear synced up and left on for about an hour before they go on (in it's computer based). Depending on whether it's one person or a group, there will also be the need for multiple hands to make sure everything goes. But even presequenced stuff can be manipulated realtime with whatever influence the audience and the artist(s) share at that given venue. And to that end, I see the Creamware cards (in a well built/configured system) being an awesome tool for live shows, be it for the purposes of a mixing desk, a synth, an effects processor, a reliable platform to run other progs on, or what have you.
And very few modern electronic musicians go on stage without some type of presequenced material (it could even be in an old AKAI sampler or --heaven forfend-- a sack of records) or at least little clips with which to sequence in Live or something like that. Because otherwise people would have to spend like $1000s on getting people and controllers to hit little plinks or whatever for the 58 tracks they used in layering their sounds.
I think the Luna may be underpowered unless one is just doing mixing and routing (which is pretty much what the Luna was designed for). A Pulsar II or Scope card (obviously) would be better for tasks beyond such basic tasks.
My $.02
Sam