Finishing songs - or actually getting started :)

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spoimala
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Post by spoimala »

Okay, every now and then somebody starts a new topic about Big Discussions. About problems, or experiences or "where do the ideas come from" or "I have lost my creativity". Fruitful discussions! :smile:
So, here's my addition.

Maybe because I'm still a beginner in computer music, I actually never get anything finished. I have millions of ideas or riffs in my head. I have tons of great sounds in my synths and SFP (which in their part inspire me to make new tunes). Very often I go to my synth and start playing.. just let the music flow. No problems so far.
Sometimes I even record this track as midi and add something into it... but then, I have already got an idea of new song and this old one will be forgotten forever...
So, how do prevent new ideas disturbing the one you are working with?

Even more serious problem is, I have found making drum tracks very painful. Do you use some tools to make grooving drum patterns? Making it using matrix edit view (or grid or whatever) really makes me to play the new riff :smile:
So, how do you get your song started?

Maybe I'm just a guy who wants everything ready ASAP and am only interested in good sounds and melodies/harmonies and weird chord changes :grin: But am too lazy to actually finish anything.
Help me! Thank you :smile:
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braincell
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Post by braincell »

It probably would help to form a band with people who are more driven than you are. A good drummer with midi pads has got to be the best way to get great rhythm tracks. I have the same problem you do. My goal is to finish one piece of music by the end of the year.
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kensuguro
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Post by kensuguro »

I think this is a big problem for me too. For me, it's like I get sick of the song once I've made my point.. or most of the time, once I've made it through the first main "loop" of the song.

I dunno, I think it comes from self discipline and the ability to force yourself into concentrating on something you're not interested in. I think it's a vital factor of being a successful songwriter. If you're just in it for the creative shabang, sure, go and move on to the next riff. The more the better. But if writing tunes is your objective, then you just have to sit down and finish it. There's no easy way out I think. Being inspired for a tune is one thing, but finishing it is another.

About drum tracks... I'm not sure what sort of drum tracks you're talking about. (live performance orientated, or electro music orientated) But a live performer is a good choice if you have one around. If that's not the case, look into drum libraries. You can always replace the sampled drums with a real one. Have the player listen to the sampled drum track and he'll know how to cook it up with his playing skills. But it's always good to know how the drum grooves work because otherwise all your other parts won't fall into the groove. So, in other words, once you master that, you'd be able to program your own grooves. But if it's live orientated material you're talking about, then it's a different story. (just have a drummer play it.)

Also, as a note for the creative soul. I find it that when you're often distracted by new phrases, it's a state of mind. A state of mind and a set of beliefs that tell you that conventional, and the traditional isn't good. Therefore, you're more likely to leave yesterday's riff behind, and go for tomorrow's riff. Therefore, it's hard to go back to something you've played before, and to finish that up into a tune. It's a state of mind that makes you loose interest in history, the past.

This sort of mentality does have its good tho, in that it signals a phase of innovation. There are times where you'd want to value the traditional and the tried and true. But instead, you are now in a phase to value what is new. A time of new ideas and experimentation. I think such times should be valued and used to its full potential. Then, after you've passed that phase, and entered the "conventional" stage, you can use the knowledge that you've acquired through your experimentation stage. The cycle of "experimentation" and "conventional" may be a couple of months or a couple of years... (from my experience, the cycle becomes longer and longer)

Either way tho, you feel that you "need" to finish your tunes.. the importance is that you "need" something. It means you have motivation or momentum that keeps you in motion. It is very important that you feel such a crave... remember, when that craving stops, you stop your life as a creative person.

So apart from finishing tunes and whatnot, I think it's important that there is a balance to strike between the need that dictates a new, fresh idea, and also another need that dictates for you to finish a tune, despite using older ideas, or other unfresh ideas. The more time you spend trying to see clearly, exactly "where" you're striking the balance, the better you can feel the balance, and the better you can control it.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2003-05-21 12:07 ]</font>
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Post by mr swim »

I have exactly the same problems. I have About 20 one or two minute tracks just sitting there, which as Ken points out I now find boring and old and can't be bothered with.

I think my main problem is just time. If I ever had two days in which to focus purely on a track, I could definitely push it through, at least so it was finished enough to be fiddle-able with at a later stage when I had less time.

BUT I NEVER HAVE 2 DAYS ! Its just an afternoon here, a couple of hours there etc. I just don't think that is enough time to really focus on a tune, and that is the only real way a tune is ever going to get finished. You need to keep up a level of concentration and intimacy with a track - know its little quirks, feel the ambience that you are creating. If you have to go away and do something completely different (in my case read dry old philosophers whinging about Concepts and Externalism) then you'll (I'll, at least) lose that sense of connection. If I try and tamper with it again, it just doesn't go anywhere.

Please God, win me the f'in lottery !
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garyb
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Post by garyb »

to some degree music is about craft.craft involves work.it's just like getting up to go to work in the morning because the bills need to be paid.
spoimala
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Post by spoimala »

braincell, I already have three bands :smile:
Check them out, http://www.morian.info, http://www.bronzedore.com, http://www.clarity.ws
But none of the drummers has midi pads :sad:

Ken, I think I'm speaking about electro-oriented music now. Those bands are rock&prog&metal bands, so they are not much of help in this area.
Ok, I could do some demo tracks of rock songs in my studio, I have some guitar or synth riffs, but never manage to get any decent drum backend there.. so I decide not to do any demo. Maybe just play the riffs to the band :smile:

Now I'm getting orders for film music, commercials and other themes... and I have good(who am I to say that :smile:) ideas, piano backing or melodies, but have really difficulties to put it all together. And have the drums done, they are always The Problem :|
Have to find a good drummer with midi pads :grin:

EDIT: oh yes, about the time problem. I have exatcly the same problem, too little time. But, that's why I'm changing my contract, After June I will do 3 days work a week, instead of 5. I REALLY hope this helps :smile:

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: spoimala on 2003-05-21 15:52 ]</font>
hubird

Post by hubird »

I think it's a matter of communication.
Like Ken points out nobody has to finish a song, it's just what your interests are.

I like to let people hear my 'song', and then it's in my interest that my ideas are brought in spotlight as good as possible.

If someone, after listening, says I don't like it, I can accept that, coz I could not have done more to 'convince' the other that it's beautifull or whatever.
It makes it easyer to go further to a next song, and hopefully that one will have again stronger parts.

I never posted one mp3 on planetz which I didn't think of having finished it.
It keeps me free.
Free to get nailed down, or free to been praised to the sky, and everything in between.
Yes, I created time for making music in my live, but it definitely also is the way I am.
cheerz.




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Let There Be Music!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2003-05-21 20:13 ]</font>
samplaire
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Post by samplaire »

On 2003-05-21 10:00, spoimala wrote:
Even more serious problem is, I have found making drum tracks very painful. [....]
[...]Maybe I'm just a guy who wants everything ready ASAP and am only interested in good sounds and melodies/harmonies and weird chord changes :grin: But am too lazy to actually finish anything.
Help me! Thank you :smile:
About the drum parts - if you prefer to work alone in the area you ask about - I can recommend you my way of creating drum tracks - first look in your library for your favourite drum samples and then open ProTools free to build a loop of your own listening to it in a loop to place the sounds in desired positions (first you have to prepare a right grid) then I experiment with adding a loop from my collection and filtering it/cutting in extremly way.

I've got the same problem finishing a song :smile: I've got tons of tones on my music HD and the folders with them are named in a very creative way like: today, more today, this, this2 etc. I found one way to finish them - I play them to my friend who is my opinion leader and then work with it or give it him to compose a good placement of sounds (ie choruses, bridges or so) and then it's easier to work, really. Without it I also nail myself in one point looking for yet more fragile chord or more agressive stabs :evil:
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Post by mr swim »

I think the main thing about drum tracks is to hear what you want (even if only in a basic way) first. Then, with a bit of practice, the 'piano roll' style editing is really useful.

My thing is to play in a really simple rythm which will be the base of my beat. Then go into the 'piano roll' and start clicking in notes ! If you're doing a short section, then its pretty easy to hear where they're going wrong, and move them. To the left, right, maybe a different drum sound. This is pretty labourious to start with, because its so random ! But after a while, I found that I had quite an intuitive feel for where in the beat things should come, and I now do it without even thinking about it most of the time . . .
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garyb
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Post by garyb »

the best way for me to do drum tracks is to start simply.just program the basic beat with minimal variations.do the song and then you'll know what you want for the finished track.

keeping the beat very basic let's me get on with it.
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Nestor
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Post by Nestor »

I think that to have a comprehensive idea from the beginning, before starting composing, it’s what you need. When I need to do something fast, let’s say, a background music for a presentation or for a documentary, I need to have it in time. So there it comes the factor Garyb is talking about “work”. I need to be clear about what I’m going to do.

I find a balance letting myself go wherever my feelings want to go, but, based in a global form already conceived, so I know what I’m composing and can calculate how long it will take. You can’t say “I don’t know” to your client, businessman like people hate this answer, and you unfortunately must give them a tangible answer.

It’s a matter or perception of an “entirety”, rather than a compositional problem to my understanding, what you’re talking about.

In other words:
Let’s imaging you need to plan a travel to India for 6 people including you. You can’t jut GO to India, cos you have no planned your itinerary yet and this would be a suicidal behaviour, you need to sort out quite exactly how long it will take to cross the border, the possible dangers on the area, you need to change some money to the different currencies of the countries you have to pass through, you need the vaccinations of rigour not to get in trouble, and finally, you need a plan to move into the right place. You can’t afford to get lost, cos it may mean dead!

Well, let’s translate this into composition:
Let’s say you need to compose 6 short songs of 2 minutes each for a theatre performance. You can’t just START composing without knowing what the performance is about, this would be a useless work. You need to know how long it will take you to compose 6 songs amounting to 12 minutes of music, you need to put yourself a dead like day where everything should be finished and mastered, plan the back-up procedures you are going to use in case of disaster, you need to chose the sample library, drum and synth sounds you are going to use for the songs; you need to close your mobile phone, close yourself a little not to get irritated for matters of daily living like discussions, bills to pay, etc., so you are in a good mood which is exceptionally important; and finally, you need a coherent development of the parts of each song, the start, the middle, and the end at least. You can’t afford to get lost into many inconsistent ideas, cos the dead like is coming and you need to present your job.

Well, I think this is something like that… Let’s balance between the freedom of doing whatever you want to, and the form of a little bit of organization, understood to your way.

I don’t have a particular way to get into a composition today, everything, literally, is able to produce the fillings that will bring to imagination the “something” to start. But the organization of it all, is not brought by inspiration, or by anything else, it’s a matter of working on it according to much articulately and even logically with the kind of music you’re building up.

Logics is nothing but what you understand it should be, this is what I mean. Anyway, something is true, a song cannot last forever, it is impossible practically. You can suggest the end of it as what it continues, fading it down, but in the real world, only imagination can do this. Again, I think a mixture of FREEDOM and ORGANITATION properly mangled, will give you the perfect solution to what you’re asking for.

Try to get the WHOLE picture before starting, and then… go composing.

I would love to read some outcome of it, whenever you are ready and have found some sort of solution, please, keep writing about it and thank you for sharing this wonderful topic with everybody else. :smile:
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astroman
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Post by astroman »

On 2003-05-22 14:18, Nestor wrote:
...Let’s imaging you need to plan a travel to India for 6 people including you. You can’t jut GO to India, cos you have no planned your itinerary yet and this would be a suicidal behaviour, you need to sort out quite exactly how long it will take to cross the border, the possible dangers on the area, you need to change some money to the different currencies of the countries you have to pass through, you need the vaccinations of rigour not to get in trouble, and finally, you need a plan to move into the right place. You can’t afford to get lost, cos it may mean dead!
Well, let’s translate this into composition: ...
hi Nestor,
I've once done exactly this (literally, though in North Africa instead of India) and ignored all and every of those concerns, and it worked marvellous... :grin:
there was even a dude at a fountain in the desert asking: hey you're not afraid I might kill you ? My anser was: no, why should you ?

How did this work ? With my 120 pounds I'm not impressive :lol: at all.
I simply believed the sh*t, I was totally naive and unconcerned and obviously people pick this up like dogs do, when you're afraid.
Think about it, your theory works at least as well the other way round :wink:
Of course I do agree with most of what's written above when you're working as a professional for a living. Some organization and craftmenship is required.
But for those great moments of inspiration (or groove) I'd rather vote for an 'anything goes' and let the impossible happen.
Btw I'm suffering from the same 'unfinished garbage blues' and this thread already helped me by clearly thinking about it and start with a first step :smile:

cheers, Tom
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Nestor
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Post by Nestor »

Hufff man, you really made me laugh today! :lol:

It’s amazing you did it with so little money and in a crazy way, wow! :wink:

I agree completely with you about the groove thing, there “no rules”, but no rules it’s already “something”, and “something” it’s sort of a rule.
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Post by spoimala »

Nestor, we are speaking about different things... If I promise to make a song for a film, okay, then I have to plan and give a timeframe for it.
But if I'm just making music (art) I can't "plan" it. It just flows through my body, and excessive thinking would affect that feed. I think art is what just comes out from my hands, it's not something that's planned and calculated precisely.

And what comes to travelling, sometimes it really is a wonderful experience to just go. :smile:
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astroman
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Post by astroman »

you're right Nestor, it didn't even work for two people :wink: we had to split due to different opinions and preferences rather early on the trip.
And while the travelling itself was great going - not all experiences were that funky.
Well, at least I learned what it feels like for the girls if every idiot only talks to you to get you into some f*cking... on the street, in the caffee, anywhere...
I didn't imagine it was that hard. :lol:

Back on the topic:
your example just reminded me on some experiences when I was really into trouble and had to work the best I could.
There was no time for argueing with myself, but suddenly everything unfolded almost by itself and a kind of 'workflow' developed.
That mood seems often covered by I-dunno-what in everyday life, possibly due to a lot of knowledge about the 'facts'.
I'm suffering from the 'unfinished tracks syndrome' too, and this thread already :smile: helped by making me reflect what's going on.

cheers, Tom
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Post by ChrisWerner »

Practice your work!
Search the web for competitions or remix contests, they are almost for free and you have got a given deadline.It´s always a good way to compare your knowledge and skill with many other musicans or producers around the world.
This weekend I have 42 hours to remix a track for a competition, that is quite exciting and forces you to work as good as you can -when you want to win.
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wayne
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Post by wayne »

i feel a lot of the things talked about here, and i reckon pushing through (and finding the time) is the best thing for it.

my main problem seems to be: how to fit these ideas into the modern musical world (the way we all interface with it, how we make a living from it)

over the years, all the wonderful bands i've been lucky to play with were never able to be businesslike, or were chronologically misplaced, mostly, so these mines of songwriting within communities never were nurtured enough by those communities.......

things are changing, though :smile:
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Nestor
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Post by Nestor »

Good point Chris… that’s true, if you do something with a goal, it becomes more of a serious production to you, and you give more from yourself. That happens to me to.

Coming back to the topic itself:
You know? I have reflected for ages about this point... I’m not giving you a sudden idea or point of view I have just had reading this topic, I’ve been reflecting on this for years. I honestly think everything; all… needs a volatile and a fix conjunction of parts.

I guess it’s nice to be a bird. Birds are happy flying here and there moving around, but they are happy cos they have the their fixed earth to come back.

This rather abstract idea expresses quite well nevertheless, what I mean. The right mixture of ORGANIZATION and FREEDOM is the key for a fresh but good work.

It is something similar to Mercy and Justice. If you were to be only merciful in your life, you would become an accomplice with offences. If you were to be only just in your life, you would become a tyrant. The middle is, and has always been the way for balance. I do believe in balance, even if I can’t always achieve it cos it’s difficult to reach. But definitely, worth trying. :smile:
Neil B

Post by Neil B »

Thank you Spoimala, Braincell, Kensuguro and Mr Swim - I'M NOT ALONE AFTER ALL.
Yes, I have lots of bits of tracks unfinished too, but I save these for a rainy day. My promise to myself is that I will take each one in turn and not be sidetracked until it either:
(1) Becomes a finished track or
(2) Is scrapped because it isn't going to achieve what I wanted from it.

I also agree with Nestor about seeing the big picture before you begin a track - about having a comprehensive idea. I like to come up with a script or storyline for a track first. Perhaps it is something that has affected me (not the alcohol variety) or a tale or piece of history or a fond memory that I'd like to put to music.
Then I pencil in the moods, styles I may want and decide what I want to express the most.
Then I start writing. Inevitably you end up going down different pathways, but you reach a point where you are satisfied that you have captured what you wanted to express.

Of course, it doesn't always work, but I haven't reached the stage yet where I need a separate hard disk for the unfinished tracks!

I think it is a matter of discipline as many of you have said. Why not take one of your 2 minute unfinished pieces and tell yourself that you are not working on anything else until that track is complete (or at a point where you know that it will be completed)?
Neil B

Post by Neil B »

I think that there are also other things to consider.
Many of the members earn money from music, whereas I suspect the majority are into music as a hobby (as I am). So do you really HAVE to finish a track? If it is a hobby for yourself and you only got 2 minutes into a track - did you enjoy putting the 2 minutes together? Did it help you relax after work? Did you have some quality time while writing something? Whilst putting together those couple of minutes, did you learn something about the software, technology, about music? Can this learning curve improve your next 2 minute bit-of-a-track or make it easier and quicker?
What is the end product really? Yes, of course we all want to write tracks that others can enjoy listening to, but you can pressurise yourself and stifle your creativity if you are writing for others instead of for yourself (as a hobby musician that is).
My wife Jan paints watercolour pictures for a hobby and she regularly sells quite a lot of them. But, believe you me, her study is full of half finished, unfinished, test "etchings" and so on. I don't believe there is an artist in any field of the arts who produces 100% without having failures or unfinished "symphonies".
If you are a hobby musician, write for yourself and then post it to the forum for feedback.
I've just got back from a superb mountain bike holiday in Scotland, brimming with ideas, but I've promised myself that I'm going to do it one track at a time. But I still feel that 2 minute unfinished tracks have their place in everyones studio.
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