XTC effects as sends

GonZoft · Post by **GonZoft** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 3:45 am

Since, generally speaking, there is no way to compensate the latency of effect-sends, and since xtc effects all have a latency of about 50 ms, I keep wondering how exactly one is supposed to use xtc effects as sends. The xtc-mode MasterVerb used as a send effect sounds rather like a delay because of the 50 ms latency. And more: MasterVerb as a channel insert crashes when reloading a song in cubase sx. Resuming, there is no way to use the MasterVerb in a meaningful way in xtc mode. Sorry if I keep posting anti-xtc stuff, but the more I try to do some work with it the more I come to the conclusion that it is rubbish.

Dolphin · Post by **Dolphin** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 4:30 am

Is that so? I did not encounter latency while using XTC-effects (e.g. masterverb or delay) as send-effects. Only with some (!) of the XTC-inserts I have latency. And this can easily be compensated by telling the Cubase SX-inspector to run the track with negative latency (-50ms). It does not change the sound, does it?

Maybe you forgot to set the masterverb to "wet" and switch of the original signal???

Please let me know, if that was the reason.

Uwe

GonZoft · Post by **GonZoft** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 4:03 pm

Well, if the dry part of the effect is delayed, then the wet part of ot will be delayed too, don't you agree? I understand your answer as "if you make it wet and low level you won't notice the delay". Of course not. And if you don't use it at all, you won't have any problems either. But still, sometimes I want only a little room with reflections arriving nearly immediately. This is not possible with xtc mode MasterVerb, because the (dry, wet or mixed) signal will return the earliest 50 ms after the original signal. 50 ms is a whole lot, it corresponds to the difference between a tiny bedroom and a middle sized gymnasium, in terms of early reflections and reverberation.

Dolphin · Post by **Dolphin** » Thu Oct 03, 2002 1:11 am

Agreed, although I still don't hear that latency. I'll keep on experimenting with that phenomenon.

GonZoft · Post by **GonZoft** » Thu Oct 03, 2002 5:34 am

In the case of a reverb (MasterVerb in our case) one won't hear the latency as something that is "wrong" (at least as long as the return signal is 100% wet), but as a reverb with a little predelay. Reverb with predelay simulates real existing situations and sounds actually very correct and nice. The problem here is that one might want to have a reverb without, or with only very little predelay which also sounds correct and nice, because it is also simulating a (different) real existing situation. This isn't possible with a reverb as send effect that itself has 50 ms latency, it will always be predelayed by at least these 50 ms. With other xtc effects as send, one will even hear that something IS wrong. Try e.g. to add an xtc chorus (only wet) via send to the original signal. If you make it loud, you'll hear more than a chorus, there is actually a short slap delay too. This is caused by the chorus signal arriving 50 ms too late. Latency of send effects cannot be compensated with easy workarounds like the one of advancing the sending track in the inspector. If you advance the track that is sending, you'll get the return of the effect in sync to the rest of the song, but the advanced track will indeed be played much too early. You'd have to duplicate the track, advance one of the duplicated and use it only as a send, and use the other one (the non-advanced) as the original signal. Too much work. All this applies to every send plugin by whatever manufacturer, but in the case of e.g. Waves plugins like the TrueVerb the latency is below 1 ms, so it is not a problem.

Cheers.

Dolphin · Post by **Dolphin** » Thu Oct 03, 2002 8:53 am

Yeah, I tried that. Indeed you do hear that latency. That really sucks, because I was just about to finally decide, that XTC-Mode is the better way to use the PulsarII.

Does anybody out there want to tell his opinion to this subject?

What happened to those people, who started this "XTC-is-the-better-way"-discussion? Any more experiences?

Dolphin · Post by **Dolphin** » Fri Oct 04, 2002 5:49 am

One more question / idea ...

Correct me, if I am wrong, but the latency is the time, the signal needs to get to the Pulsar-DSPs from the host-application, right? E. g., when I play any Pulsar-Synth without the Direct mode, it will sound with a latency of e.g. 7ms.

So if you use the masterverb or any other effect as send-effect, the signal should only need twice this time. If your latency is 7ms (on my DAW), the wet signal should appear in Cubase after 14ms and not after 50ms.

Maybe I am wrong with this theory but it sounds logical to me.

Anyway, I tried to use another VST-Reverb (Waves) and I have to say, that this Reverb sounds as nice as the masterverb. Of course it has its own "colour", but e. g. for drums or guitars or pads it is absolutely ok.

I think I will use the masterverb for vocals and the Steinway (Steinberg The Grand) in future and will put this into an insert slot. For anything else I will use a high quality VST-Plug-In. By the way, I always used the Cubase Moddelay before this discussion because I really like the sound.

siberiansun · Post by **siberiansun** » Fri Oct 04, 2002 4:45 pm

I agree, waves trueverb really sounds good! so does timeworks 4080 but...
we do PAY for the xtc-mode don't we?

i mean sure there are tonnes of good reverb-
delay- dynamics- etc-pluggs out there but they all take a good chunk of cpu and ram. if we accept that, we might as well get ourselves a simpler card like m-audio audiophile (around $200 in sweden) and save ourselves $2-300.
we put up that extra dough just to get good effects (like masterverb, exellent!) without having to sacrifice cpu right?

i think the xtc-latency is unacceptable, i paid quite a lot of money on effects i just cannot use the way i want to use them and the way creameare advertised i could use them.
sure i can route through wichever scopemixer i want and get effects at zero latency but those projects, with some 20-24 channels from asio dest in to mixer tend to get too huge and cpu/ram demanding. (switching windows problems, anyone...?)

i really don't think we should "give up" and say -"well, latency in xtc-mode is too high, let's not use it".
NO! i say creamware, get to the drawing board and come up with what we actually thought we paid for.

I'm NOT dissing my precious creamware card but let's face it, it DOES need improvment.
Thank you everyone.

[ This Message was edited by: siberiansun on 2002-10-04 17:47 ]

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Fri Oct 04, 2002 11:35 pm

i think the xtc-latency is unacceptable

It's inherent to any DSP plugin used like that. CW are not magicians. No matter which DSP card you use (UAD-1, TC, CW) the stream has to go fromm Host (CPU) mixer->DSP->CPU->DSP. Triple latency that is.

First generation cards have 13ms latency.
My hardware synths have 10ms.
XTC has 3x3ms=9ms.

You tell me which is fastest.

GonZoft · Post by **GonZoft** » Sat Oct 05, 2002 4:32 am

On 2002-10-05 00:35, at0mic wrote:
i think the xtc-latency is unacceptable
It's inherent to any DSP plugin used like that. CW are not magicians. No matter which DSP card you use (UAD-1, TC, CW) the stream has to go fromm Host (CPU) mixer->DSP->CPU->DSP. Triple latency that is.

First generation cards have 13ms latency.
My hardware synths have 10ms.
XTC has 3x3ms=9ms.

You tell me which is fastest.

Sorry, but I have to disagree.

1. 50 ms at 44.5 kHz it is, not 9. Look at Cubase SX plugin info window and translate the number of samples into ms. Or better, make a test project and measure the latency.

2. No, they are not magicians. But do I sell an elixir that makes invisible and then, when people start complaining that it doesn't work, I bring up the excuse that I am not a magician? No, that's taking the piss, sorry for that. All the excuses and technical reasons why it cannot work are not acceptable because they do advertise and sell it as if it would work. And for xtc mode to "work" in this case does not only mean that the signal, after passing the cpu, the dsp and whatever, arrives at the card's output and is audible. I didn't buy CW stuff only to be astonished about the possibilities of digital signal routing by modern technique. To "work" also means that the sync of the whole thing is solved so that it is possible make music with it. This is not the case. If the reason why it is not solved is that it is technically impossible, then this product has to be removed from the market.

Cheers.

_________________
Thanks for listening.

The GonZoft studios.

Visit us at http://GonZoft.tripod.com/

[ This Message was edited by: GonZoft on 2002-10-05 05:52 ]

[ This Message was edited by: GonZoft on 2002-10-05 05:56 ]

siberiansun · Post by **siberiansun** » Sat Oct 05, 2002 10:07 am

On 2002-10-05 05:32, GonZoft wrote:
All the excuses and technical reasons why it cannot work are not acceptable because they do advertise and sell it as if it would work.

Now that's EXACTLY what i'm talking about.
If the product is not 100% as you advertise it to be
..don't advertise.

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Sat Oct 05, 2002 10:13 am

Now set your ULLI to 3ms @ 44.100Hz, and refresh the VST plugins window.

1 / 44.100 x 258 = 0.00585 seconds latency. This is the latency only of the plugin.

Add 3ms to is for the sound to go to the Analog out from ASIO, and you're at 9ms.

GonZoft · Post by **GonZoft** » Sun Oct 06, 2002 4:50 am

at0mic:

After updating the plugin info window in SX (ULLI at 3 ms, 44.1 kHz) it still shows 2178 samples delay for every CW effect and synth. I suppose that this latency varies with the involved CW hardware and gets worse if one has more than one card. I have PS and Pulsar XTC connected with STDM. I suppose that you have something different, perhaps only one card?

Cheers.

_________________
Thanks for listening.

The GonZoft studios.

Visit us at http://GonZoft.tripod.com/

[ This Message was edited by: GonZoft on 2002-10-06 06:22 ]

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Sun Oct 06, 2002 5:27 am

I have great news: Got next project running:
Cubase SX w:
-Fruiti VST (no Multi),
-Reason Rewired,
-XTCi: Minimax, EDS8i,
-VSTi: Slayer
-one audio track from disk
-I can choose which track to send to which Group,
-I can choose where to throw which MultiFX (only XTc insert I use, as host for others) without a crackle!!

No use of Delay Compensators, no track adjustment, SX does it all.

I have no clue how comes, but IT WORKS!!

Of course, the 9ms could interfere w early reflections etc, but I'm using no Aux yet.

this makes my day

Lotuz · Post by **Lotuz** » Sun Oct 06, 2002 8:27 am

On 2002-10-05 11:13, at0mic wrote:
Now set your ULLI to 3ms @ 44.100Hz, and refresh the VST plugins window.

1 / 44.100 x 258 = 0.00585 seconds latency. This is the latency only of the plugin.

Add 3ms to is for the sound to go to the Analog out from ASIO, and you're at 9ms.

At these ULLI settings I get a delay of 386 samples. I have a Pulsar II + Pulsar II SRB (total of 12 DSPs).

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Sun Oct 06, 2002 9:15 am

Strange. I think that's normally for 4ms.

Have you refreshed VSTplugins and then cross-checked if ULLI is still at 3ms?

Lotuz · Post by **Lotuz** » Sun Oct 06, 2002 11:48 am

Oops, you're right. Forgot to press the Update button. Now I do have a delay of 258 samples.

Steve-o · Post by **Steve-o** » Sun Oct 06, 2002 12:06 pm

I just posted a piece of music (Harvey's Ride) produced completely in XTC-Mode (recorded, mixed) and mastered in Wavelab. I (only) used Masterverb PRO for reverb - go see yourself if latency is a problem there...

GonZoft · Post by **GonZoft** » Sun Oct 06, 2002 12:38 pm

Hell, I cannot get away from my 2178 samples xtc delay! I tried every ULLI setting, loaded SX in xtc mode and updated the plugin info window and always shows 2178 samples for creamware stuff. I must be doing something wrong? Or is there a special way to change the ULLI settings in xtc mode? I have the feeling that SX is not able to remember the ULLI settings. How do you guys do that?

Cheers.

Lotuz · Post by **Lotuz** » Sun Oct 06, 2002 1:45 pm

On 2002-10-06 13:38, GonZoft wrote:Or is there a special way to change the ULLI settings in xtc mode? I have the feeling that SX is not able to remember the ULLI settings. How do you guys do that?

That's one thing I still don't get. Each time I start Cubase SX the Control Panel shows no change in ULLI settings, but the latency is higher (probably 25 ms). I have to press the black dot to reset it to the correct latency.