Connecting hardware gear

[fidox]

Hey !

It's been approx.15 years since i last time used hardware synth.
Few months ago i have purchased Korg Minilogue XD module.


It has USB Midi output to computer.
Connection is pretty simple.
In Cubase Artist 11 is recognized normally and i can also use editor for Minilogue and record knobs movement in editor and so.
I like that part.
What i have noticed is , while Minilogue is in slave mode, I can hear some sync drop outs in arp section, also built-in effects are here and there little out of sync.
While not in slave mode and use module's BPM is little better, but still.

Is there any difference in stability while connecting module thru MIDI ports to, in my case, to Luna II midi IN or ?
Can i also record knob movements thru MIDI port ?
Do you have any experiences with synths which they have USB Midi connections ?

Thanks for any kind of tip, suggestion, experiences

Best

[valis]

Give us a screenshot of your USB device tree, with the section containing the Minilogue fully expanded:
https://www.uwe-sieber.de/usbtreeview_e.html

[fidox]

Give us a screenshot of your USB device tree, with the section containing the Minilogue fully expanded:
https://www.uwe-sieber.de/usbtreeview_e.html

Thanks Valis, will check little later.
I have almost all my devices connected to USB 3.0 hub, just Midi keyboard is on separate input.

[fidox]

USB Device Viewer

[valis]

Long story short, you need to keep your iLok/eLicensers on the hub and move your Korg over to a dedicated port, or a second hub which you'll use only with midi devices.

You might find you still have these timing issues, if there's an issue with the Korg's USB implementation, but it's also possible that some audio applications access the midi ports through different API's as well. I would need to see a screenshot of your audio application or DAW, along with what you can configure in your options or preferences to enable midi in & out ports.

Lastly, it is possible with some keyboards & etc to address their physical midi DIN port as well as the USB port, either connected to the same DAW software or perhaps to send midi on USB from your DAW, but attach a keyboard controller directly to the Korg itself and play it that way. So, you might experiment with using the USB port for midi clock and control messages, while sending notes along the midi out from your Scope cards. Or vice versa...until it syncs stably.

Feel free to post your DAW's options page for enabling midi devices if you'd like. I can also drill further into discussing the USB stuff if anyone cares.

[fidox]

Thanks Valis !

Will post screenshot next time, when i'll be on music workstation computer.
Ok, will move USB midi from Korg to other, single USB port.
I'd like to keep Midi keyboard over USB port, cause most of the time i'm producing music with vst's and scope plugins,
maybe if i can connect it to Luna's midi port, so one USB connection less, but i don't have power adapter for Midi keyboard,
when purchased there were none, so i'm not sure if i can play with Midi keyboard just with connection over MIDI.
I can play normally just with USB midi port connected, so no need for power adapter, but i can try.

On USB hub 3.0 i also have keyboard and mouse USB connected, is this ok ?

There was also new windows driver for KORG Minilogue, which i have installed yesterday, will test some more next days.

[fidox]

Here is my Cubase Artist 11 studio setup.
Working with VST's instruments/effects and Scope plugins is very stable.

[fidox]

Yesterday i played some more with Korg's Minilogue and different connection setups, different settings in Cubase and so on.
I have tried also connection thru MIDI IN/OUT interface to Luna's card, but at the end i ended like before, thru USB midi connection.

I figured out , that, the best option is to set Minilogue to internal tempo setting and that sync-out happend when, while playing loop-sequence in Cubase and play cursor jumps to position 1, then little drop-out happens. If i play sequence normal, without returning to position 1, then it's fine. Or just stop and play again from start, everything is in sync.

If i set Minilogue to external clock, coming from Cubase, it's the same like setting to Minilogue internal clock, but at the end , when i stop playing sound at Minilogue synth i can hear little, like "vibrato" sound at the end. Like sound is not stable. When going back to synth's internal clock, sound is fine and stable.

[valis]

Yes, this is due to the nature of Midi clock, which sends a very simple midi message at 24 ppq (pulses per quarter note), and the spacing between these messages are used to derive the tempo. Midi also carries something called Song Position Pointer (SPP) which will give a time position when a transport change is done (uses 3 bytes, can cause clock itself to dropout for a moment). Ie, when resetting to 1 the midi PQQ Messages are placed with SPP, and you can hear the result.

Anyway MIDI clock has its own issues, the resolution of midi baud rate defines the intervals that can be achieved 'between' whole number divisible BPM settings on gear, and any other messages sent along that cable can alter timing subtly. When working over 160bpm, the issues here get magnified, so I'm used to the workarounds which includes what you've found. Delays especially get 'wonky' so setting internal effects on keyboards that can sync to tempo helps avoid clicks & weird warbles there, and similarly having an arp sync-locked to internal clock will always be more stable than MIDI clock messages.

The other solution is to use a dedicated midi input for clock/sync, and of course there's a world of hardware devices geared towards extracting and injecting midi clock in a variety of ways. https://www.innerclocksystems.com/ is one of the more well known vendors of such tools, and these solutions solve problems for people who need to generate & distribute clock to external devices that have no other solution.

Setting tempo internally on a device is the simplest fix, as long as you're not doing tempo changes in your music. And unless you're holding your arp for 64 measures it's likely to suffice for your workflow.

[fidox]

Setting tempo internally on a device is the simplest fix, as long as you're not doing tempo changes in your music. And unless you're holding your arp for 64 measures it's likely to suffice for your workflow.

Thanks Valis !

It's ok , that way.

Why do you think that while setting to "external clock" sound changes little , when i play for example a note, at the end i can hear "vibrato" effect like, not that loud, but like sound is little vibrating at the end.
But not always, i think i have opened empty project in Cubase and it was fine , must check once again tonight, if this happens just when inserting new midi channel in existing project or it's fine in empty project.
That must come from external source, like computer (Cubase... ).
Cause, if i use internal clock, sound is stable and no "vibrating" effect like can be heard.


Also, i noticed, that sometimes, even when i choose "internal clock" in sound module, BPM changes, not always, for example from 120BPM to 119.5BPM or 120.5BPM.

[fidox]

The other solution is to use a dedicated midi input for clock/sync, and of course there's a world of hardware devices geared towards extracting and injecting midi clock in a variety of ways.

https://www.thomann.de/gb/doepfer_msy2.htm


It's quite cheap, but if this can be good enough, for what i need ?

[valis]

The issues you're noting with pitch 'vibrato' type effect is due to fluctuations in midi clock, which is 100% normal. If you send a dense array of other messages (lots of midi CC's etc) you'l note this gets worse, and is due to how the midi datastream works with the limited bandwidth of a midi port. This is why I suggested (if you must sync to an external clock) using one input for clock and the other midi input for all other data is a typical workaround, if possible on a given module or setup of course. Internal clock is still preferable.

I'm not sure if you're saying the vibrato effect still occurs even when set to internal sync? Then this would be a different issue, perhaps something sending pitchbend data that's showing up on that module?

The clock converter you linked above shouldn't be necessary in your situation, though if Minilogue supports CV / Gate style messaging and the Eurorack style sync clock, then it might well be useful in other ways. I am not familiar enough with that Korg unit to know offhand...

[fidox]

The clock converter you linked above shouldn't be necessary in your situation, though if Minilogue supports CV / Gate style messaging and the Eurorack style sync clock, then it might well be useful in other ways. I am not familiar enough with that Korg unit to know offhand...

I think it does...
Audio Sync for all studio/live requirements with connection to ...

You can also expand polyphony to 8 voices, connecting 2 modules together.

[fidox]

I'm not sure if you're saying the vibrato effect still occurs even when set to internal sync? Then this would be a different issue, perhaps something sending pitchbend data that's showing up on that module?

No, with internal sync sound is stable and fine.

I just noticed yesterday, that happens with external clock , but not always. I have opened an empty project and it was fine even with external sync. But then i opened one project which i'm working on and i heard that "vibrato" again.

[valis]

If the clock is fluctuating it would start with the project (is there a tempo automation change somewhere?). The the port comes next. The USB midi wouldn't be limited by baud rate, at least due to transport issues (the usb cable has oodles of bandwidth compared to MIDI DIN-5). But it can be affected by other devices, so we started there based off the info given in first post.

If you're sending a LOT of event data, timing might be affected by the way the internal engine handles events (you'd think this would be sorted by the dev team though).

Sometimes midi problems are also due to another device sending data and your track listening to all inputs, or something like having biderectional midi data going to & from the device. This can be a loop, which would be bad, but even HUI type data sent to keep encoder positions up to date can bog things down sometimes.

hard to say exactly from the info given so far, so just giving pointers =]

[borg]

my most stable 'everything linked' setup is:

Elektron MD as master clock, going into an 8x8 midi box (Alyseum AL-88C). All hardware boxes go in and out of that box as well, the midi box goes to a router thingie that also connects to 1) a MacbookPro that runs ableton Live through an RME Fireface800/A8 combo, and 2) a Win XP PC with only Scope running (Xite and 3 PCI cards over Adat to RME).
Everything runs smoothly when synced to the MachineDrum,. If you look at the bpm displays in scope devices when set to external clock, there are no jumps, it's steady... So is Live and other external gear.
If I set Live as sync master, all bpm meters jump. It's been a while that I did these tests, and at the moment I'm working more on just the laptop , but from memory, it was worse when using midi over USB, against sending midi from RME to Scope Xite. Midi clock generated in a computer has always been an issue. Atari got it right. My main interest is techno jams: long repetitive runs that fall to pieces when machines start choosing their own pace. And that's why you see these dedicated clocking devices so much in hardware/hybrid setups. These devices are costly, but they work.
ExpertSleepers Usamo is probably one of the cheaper solutions, but the calibration is cumbersome, I hear. And then you have the top tier devices like ER-M and SND.

https://www.expert-sleepers.co.uk/usamo.html
https://www.thomann.de/gb/e_rm_multiclo ... 3ddae67bf0
https://www.thomann.de/gb/snd_acme_4.htm

[fidox]

My main interest is techno jams: long repetitive runs that fall to pieces when machines start choosing their own pace

Cool !
I'm more into mix of psytrance, ambient, downtempo, influences from 80's and so on.
More like my own style of mix from those styles and maybe some other more

Thanks for your answer !
I was looking at those devices, from links you gave me.
I also found this model :
E-RM MIDIclock+
https://www.thomann.de/gb/e_rm_midiclock.htm
Is this for the same purpose ?

Well, using Korg's Minilogue internal clock with Cubase over USB connection is not that bad at all.
Single sounds are fine, arp's maybe little more tricky , but overall fine.
I like USB connection cause of working with editor with Minilogue in Cubase, so i can easily record knobs movement and editing it, without touching the module

[fidox]

hard to say exactly from the info given so far, so just giving pointers =]

I know, it's hard to write what i hear, but ... You gave me already a lot of useful informations

[borg]

I also found this model :
E-RM MIDIclock+

looks good! if you don't need the extra bells and whistles of the bigger units... reviews all seem raving.

[fidox]

I also found this model :
E-RM MIDIclock+

looks good! if you don't need the extra bells and whistles of the bigger units... reviews all seem raving.

Yea, but i guess i can't use this device , cause "Cubase does not support being a MIDI clock slave".
I have also asked at E-RM company support, but in 2 weeks no answer so far.