MIDI to Audio Delay in Logic and Cubase

[Nick]

I realize this is a very frequent topic, but after many experiments on my own and searching through the forms here, I still am perplexed.

There is a delay between MIDI parts (either an outboard module or a pulsar synth) and audio outputted by my sequencer (Logic or Cubase). I use the ASIO drivers so the time between the audio being played in the sequencer and it actually being outputted by the ASIO drivers is very short. Unfortunately, it exists.

In Cubase, there is a MIDI to Audio delay. I use a delay of 573 samples (With a ULLI setting of 13 ms, that is 0.013 seconds * 44100 samples/second) and the Audio and MIDI are perfectly syncronized.

In Logic, however, there is no MIDI to Audio delay function. I find it quite impossible to have both playing EXACTLY simultaneously.

Albeit the delay is so small, it really doesn't matter when I'm recording a live take through a mic, as even the tightest musician can be off by a few milliseconds.

The annoyance comes when I record the output of the synths playing the MIDI parts in the sequencer. Say I have a sequence starting on 1.01.01, on the very first beat of the first measure. If I record this in Logic, the audio file is a tiny bit delayed and it starts just a little bit late when I play it back, therefore playing it back at the same time as the MIDI part creates a tiny flam effect. Very annoying!

Can anybody with a better grasp on this explain how to fix this? I understand that audio going through an ASIO driver, either way, is delayed by the amount fixed in the ULLI setting. I doubt MIDI delay is an issue as I've conducted tests both with outboard modules and pulsar synths (in which case there should be no delay at all).

Thanks guyz

[rev]

Something similar happens in my pulsar XTC+Logic setting. As far as I am concerned, I have found no sollution, but I use a couple workarounds instead:

1-Moving the secuence foward a 'click' while pressing alt. This is not very professional, but sometimes comes in handy

2-Adding non-XTC effects to FX chain. For example, I use XTC's reverbs and delays for guitars, but I route the signal to a bus (pre) in which I have a DX plugin (mic modeller).

Maybe there are much better sollutions, but I've already posted the same question as you in some forums and I've got no useful feedback (just well-intentioned). Trial-and-error

[topbanana]

Count me in. The delay was a 1/4 note in length at its worst even with 4ms ULLI. I got a hunch about Midi driver problems when I tried to update the OS in my Waldorf MicroQ. Everytime the Waldorf would complain "bad checksum" and stop the update. So I stuck an old SB Live card in my PC, had to move it around slots to prevent conflicts but when I started using it for Midi instead of the Pulsar II It cured all midi problems. So I just stopped using Pulsar II midi cause everytime I did I suffered.

Then I got a new motherboard and blank hard disk and did a full re-install but this time no SB Live for Midi. Guess what ? no more Midi problems.

I can't explain that !!!!

TB

[subhuman]

TB: There are quite a few software issues which can effect Pulsar MIDI operation. Including midi loopback drivers amongst other things. Also V2.04a Seq Dest module had a bug, but if you didn't use it, then it did work okay. I've updated my Waldorf XT before with a preV3.0 version of pulsar (1.2 or 1.31a maybe?) so it definitely has worked in the past for me. I have found the Pulsar hardware midi ports, controlled via an AMT8 or other Midiinterface with timing protocols (Midex for Cubase), to give the most accurate timing. I suggest using Pulsar hardware midi ports in this way just as you do with external equipment for best results.

Nick, it sounds like you've figured out the numbers in Cubase, in Logic I believe this is automatic, and it reads the values from your ASIO driver. There may be some flanging effect, which is usually caused by 1-3ms timing differences, and you will definitely get this on even the best midi equipment. Only VSTi's are sample accurate. Personally I've never really seen this as a problem, because as you mention, the deviation is smaller than many of the tightest musicians playing...

Or maybe there is a setting which I haven't found yet I kind of don't think, so but would be happy to be shown otherwise!

[Nick]

Just for the record. For one, my test was innacurate. Doing the same tests with a bit more diligence, I've determined that Logic 4.7 and Pulsar 3.0 work perfectly on my system. Logic reads the delay values from the ASIO2 driver and appropriately delays MIDI messages.

Audio and MIDI are not *perfectly* in sync. There is an error which varies between 0 and 3ms, creating a very slight flanging effect. And if, as Seth mentionned, this is normal for any studio setup, well all is good.

This is only a problem if you're playing EXACTLY the same track. Which, besides when testing equipement, I don't see when you would do. Kinda pointless.

[topbanana]

Thanks Subhuman.

One other thing that may have improved the situation is me using an 8X8 midisport now as the main interface for Pulsar Midi. I don't use the Midisport midi ports but just it's very powerfull patching software with all my Midi ins and outs plugged into it (including the Pulsar II of course)

Totaly aside from this some of you may have noticed that after installing the software (serial only) for the midisport it locks your machine on boot. Infact its the windows serial port driver load hanging. If you press the mode button on the Midisport once or twice it then continues to load / boot normally. I now have a very handy rack mount boot switch for my PC !!!!! hee hee.

Sub - did you get my follow up email ?

Regards

TB

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: topbanana on 2001-12-02 03:52 ]</font>