Using DAW and Scope plugins in harmony - Phase problems

[Music Manic]

Ok so I've tried to parallel a drum track from my a DAW into Scope and use transient designer on one of the channels. Scope doesn't compensate for the delay brought on by the Transient designer so I either have to put another version in the other drum track or delay the second track to the amount the plugin creates which means tracks without plugins will have audio further ahead.

I know there are many ways around this but it hinders realtime spontaneity.

Is there a chart of how much each plugin delays the signal in Scope and is there a difference if it is in a mixer channel?

Thanks

[Yogimeister]

Dont know what your DAW is, but I actually found out recently that cubase does a cool "external fx" setup where you can test and compensate for signal delays (and you can use that external effect anywhere in the cubase mixer (sort of a cubase driven XTC mode

[jksuperstar]

Ableton has a similar plugin for external hardware (sending midi/audio to the external device)

[Yogimeister]

Yeah, but cubase also has a cool option to send an impulse and automatically calculate/set the delay

[Music Manic]

I always like to mix through Scope and I know the mixers are phase coherent in sets of 3/4 channels depending on the mixer but it's down to the plugins you use in scope. I will see if it's better to delay the track in the DAW or in Scope and I'll get back to you guys. It's really important when it comes to parallel compression and layering.

I'll post the amount of latency plugins create.

[jksuperstar]

Yeah, but cubase also has a cool option to send an impulse and automatically calculate/set the delay

Careful with an external delay! (make sure it's in bypass when calculating)

[Yogimeister]

Its all in the box ... It calculated the external delay and compensates internally . Anyway, that way you can use a send in the box to send it to the effect and keep it in phase ... (Unless the delays might change when moving dsps etc ...)


I will open a new topic about this - but regarding the mixer's "phase coherence" : what about if I use phase compensation ? Is it "static" or dynamic in terms of changing over time if the signal phase changes ? (Like if two different sounds -with different phase- are playing individually (each in its own turn) through the same scope channel ....
When/how often does the mixer recalculate the phase differences and corrects them, and is this done pre-inserts or post-inserts ... So many questions ...

[garyb]

the phase correction is on inputs.

there is not ONE high-end analog console that is as phase coherent as the typical sequencer or Scope mixer.

[Yogimeister]

The thing is though, does it set the compensations dynamically ? (Will the delay change if I change my bass to a different patch with a different waveform and phase mid-song ? (Or if i use a sampler with different bass samples that might not be in phase). Could this delay changes be audible (do the waveforms "snap to zero crossings" during the process for example ?)

[Yogimeister]

(I think I usually get better results with phase comp turned on - but its hard to tell and i have never listened for things like artifacts or bottom end cleanliness - just the overall sonic seperation and stereo image seems to be better ...)
Do you guys (including you Gary, with your experience) use the auto phase compensation in the mixers ?

[garyb]

no, it doesn't do anything active. it just makes the channels in phase from the beginning, something that seems simple, but that doesn't naturally exist in realtime.

sure, i use phase compensation.

[Yogimeister]

Careful with an external delay! (make sure it's in bypass when calculating)

Oh. You mean a delay effect ? . Yeah
(Actually, what i do is put the effect on 100% dry anyway

[Music Manic]

Ok here's a few results using the Transient designer as an input and as an effect pre-input, before the mixer.
I tested every channel in the ST2448 then tested things in the same way in the ST4896.

What I did is send a stereo ASIO channel from Ableton into channel one of the mixer, using that as the reference. I then duplicated the output into channel 2 with the Transient Designer as an input and then as a pre mixer effect, between the duplicated output signal.
I then did the same for the duplicate in channel 3 then 4 etc. Each of the duplicated tracks had the signal phase inverted.
So as soon as the Transient Designer was loaded phase cancellation was interrupted and caused phasing due to the process. I then delayed channel 1 until I got phase cancellation and this identified the delay the plugin caused:

As an insert I needed a delay of 40 (which is 0.833ms) on channel 1 for it to be in phase.
As a pre-mixer effect I needed a delay of 53 (1.104ms) on channel 1.
These are both with the effect active. If TD is bypassed as a pre-mixer effect it gives a phase of 13 (0.21ms)

All channels phased correctly exxept for channels 15 and 24 which had a leek on the left channel, so they seemed faulty. This ddin't happen on the ST4896 which seems rock solid, but I will test it more intensively.

The problem with this process is that I can't give a channel a negative latency due to it's realtime processing. I will apply this to Ableton if it allows me so everything will end up in phase when it reaches the Scope environment.

Phase compensation in the mixer didn't affect results when it was switched on.

I'll test more plugins.......

[tgstgs]

you can not test like this;
send a click or a logsweep;
good vibes

[Music Manic]

you can not test like this;
send a click or a logsweep;
good vibes

Could you expand! Could you tell me what you'd like me to do specifically. Any advice is welcome.

[Yogimeister]

no, it doesn't do anything active. it just makes the channels in phase from the beginning, something that seems simple, but that doesn't naturally exist in realtime.
.

What causes the mixer to perform (and can i "force" ) the phase correction process ?
For example:

1) if I change my bass patch and my kick after starting to work on a project ... Should i reload the project the get the phases aligned properly ?
2) If i do a meticulous mixing session - how can i make sure the mixer will not recalculate the phases next time i open the project and change the "sound" (phase relations of the tracks) of the song ?

Sorry for the (perhaps) nagging questions - just trying to develop some deeper understanding


Thanks

[Yogimeister]

@MM

thats one of the great things about the "external fx" option - it gives you "negative delay"

[tgstgs]

take the controlroom for example as source;
take the asiodest as dest;
now put something between lets say 2 channel of a mixer;
in case of controlroom and asiodest it should not be nesasary but put each on 1 dsp manually
to be sure the devices themself are not spread over 2 different dsps;
do the same with your mixer or plugin you want to test;
if you now send a click trough and record the output;
the clicks should be at same sample position then they are in phase;
if the click that is a signgle sample value changes to a more than 1 sample impulse response
than you have send trough a filter;
with filter i mean the math kind of so including compressor limmitter and so on not just eqs;
in case of an inserteffect it is more than possible that the plug is loaded on a different dsp;
the dsp have a delay between them so you MUST take care of youre flow;
if not you are creating fiters random filters; and they could change each time you reload your project;
specially on xite
good vibes

[Music Manic]

@tgstgs

I'm not quite sure of your test.
Correct me where I'm wrong please.

I use the control room as the audio source and feed its output the channel one and two to a mixer.
I then feed the mixer to the ASIO dest which will be my DAW and record the signal.

How do I check the phase after this seeing that the control room is no longer in sync with the DAW signal? Do you mean I should record the signal on two channels of the DAW (one without effects, the other with) then compare the sample differences for phase?

Thanks, all help welcome.

[garyb]

no, it doesn't do anything active. it just makes the channels in phase from the beginning, something that seems simple, but that doesn't naturally exist in realtime.
.

What causes the mixer to perform (and can i "force" ) the phase correction process ?
For example:

1) if I change my bass patch and my kick after starting to work on a project ... Should i reload the project the get the phases aligned properly ?
2) If i do a meticulous mixing session - how can i make sure the mixer will not recalculate the phases next time i open the project and change the "sound" (phase relations of the tracks) of the song ?

Sorry for the (perhaps) nagging questions - just trying to develop some deeper understanding


Thanks

nope, it's just a starting point. the mixer is in phase with itself. this has nothing to do with latency correction like in a sequencer. most of the greatest music recorded was done on analog systems that NEVER are perfectly in phase. better to make music...