Master output levels

[ShogunSpy]

So who do I believe ? Abelton Live says -6db my meters in scope have a different story to tell ..Scope looks like it is agreeing ! Should I just ignore Live

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[garyb]

meters are not absolute things. 0db is not the same everywhere as the scale depends on the reference level. believe the Ableton meters in Ableton and the Scope meters in Scope. they don't have to agree, they just need to keep you from overdriving the processes in either system.

harware systems, tape decks and mixers used to have adjustable meters. the engineer was expected to run a reference signal(determined by a specific voltage at a specific frequency) across all of the gear, and then adjust the meters to match each other.

[ShogunSpy]

Thanks Gary but still makes no spence to me -6 db is -6db. I am told to mix down to -6db for mastering. Is there any digital meter that is industry standard? I guess as long as there is headroom I should not worry about it

[garyb]

no, -6db is NOT -6db.

the scale is relative to the reference voltage(which doesn't really exist in digital). -6db is a RELATIVE number, not an absolute number. there is no such thing as an industry standard, although there are two or three reference levels that are most common.

no, you shouldn't worry about it. the only problem is if a digital device shows more than 0db on IT'S meter.

[Immanuel]

I think you should make a mix which sounds good to you. Maybe it is at -6. Maybe it is at -10. Don't change your mix decisions based on some stubborn "rule". If it sounds good, it is good. If you put too much mental focus into hitting that "magical" -6 spot, that might very well distract you from much more important decisions/elements of the mix.

[hubird]

I'd say (master)mix at -0,3 dB.
For the rest: avoid 0dB anywhere in the chain

[maky325]

I'd say (master)mix at -0,3 dB.
For the rest: avoid 0dB anywhere in the chain

Above is totally wrong advice. Maybe you typed wrong numbers. -0,3db is way way to much (or should i say to hot ) for mixing and mastering (and way above -6db). 0,3db - this is almost at the level of commercial mastered track(or as i said you typed something wrong). This is just 0.7 db bellow absolute highest 0.00db. Your music is going to be flat, squashed, without any dynamics and really tedious to master. No headroom for any correction or anything.

Gary is right. -6db is safe but -6db is relative because you need to know how to calibrate your metering. That's all. Plenty of articles on that one alone.

OP should read on calibrating meters, what is peak and what is RMS level and their difference and to know a little about gain staging. This is not complex area and everyone in music making should know at least basics of it..

IMHO


btw. long time no posting here - i am using this opportunity to congratulate Gary on his dedicated help. Wow man it's been so long and you are still here posting to people. Congratz

[Immanuel]

Hubird did not say -0.3 dBFS RMS. Anyway. -0.3 is not 0.7 below maximum. It is 0.3 below maximum.

[vascomusic]

I sense confusion here...
There's a distinction between Gain, Level and Loudness.
I think Hubird proposed to set compressor/limiter output ceiling at -0.3dB(FS), which set maximum peak Level and says nothing about the Loudness level (in RMS).

Chapter 5 "Decibels: Not for dummies" of Bob Katz book "Mastering Audio", explains a lot about measuring decibels and the inequalities different manufacturers handle to measure dB's...even in the digital domain(dBFS).
http://www.digido.com/products/masterin ... -book.html

[maky325]

Hubird did not say -0.3 dBFS RMS. Anyway. -0.3 is not 0.7 below maximum. It is 0.3 below maximum.

Oh stupid me! Yes you are correct, i calculated in opposite direction woops sorry for yet another confusion. But anyway i think and saw in practice that if you mix at such high levels, then there is just 0,3db between maximum of 0db until it goes to distortion. Seems like a too hot level in any case. What you say?

[ShogunSpy]

Thanks for the info will check out the Bob Katz book

[hubird]

Thanks guys for critics and guesses
Indeed I just wanted to say 'whatever the level differences are between different systems just stay away from clipping'.

At the mastering out level of a definite mix I'm used to aim at -0,3 dB max, as showed by the master out meter level indicators of STM mixer, if not by brick wall limiter.
It was rumoured once that this was safer than 0 dB max, in respect to some cd players like cheep car cd players and the like, so that's where it comes from

@ maky325, indeed I'm not a lover of overcompression leading to dynamics of less than 1 or 2 dB...like radio stations tend to do.

BTW, Cubase, RME Adat interface and Scope seem to use the same level settings, as I never noticed any differences

cheers.

[ShogunSpy]

My apologies I should have named the tread Pre master output levels ! So the confusion is my fault. The question was about the measurement in decibels of audio output ..oops

[garyb]

the problem is that decibels are about a measurement scale, but that there's no standard voltage to base the scale on, unlike, say temperature which is based on the freezing point of water at sea level, or some such. usually digital meters agree, but if the Scope card is a plus model, then it's calibrated to a hotter level(+4dBU), while live is probably calibrated to the more common -10dBV(or -20) consumer standard. there may be a preference setting...

heck, in the audio world, there's not even agreement on which pin of an XLR connector is hot and which is cold. most things are pin2(USUALLY the tip in a phone plug) these days, but it was only a few years ago that all american consoles and amps were pin2 hot and all british consoles and amps were pin3 hot. to add to the confusion, QSC used to use RING hot for 1/4 trs plugs. it's no wonder that people who didn't know what they were doing would get things out of phase and short out inputs so no sound came out and all kinds of problems. the meter issue isn't much of one, just make sure that nothing overdrives all the way to the end of the chain.

also, trust your ears over the meters. often there are transients that the meters won't show. the meter at the end of the chain is important because it shows the peak level the limiter is allowing, but again, critical listening is the key to a good job. if the meters are ok, but you hear graininess or other signs of possibly unwanted distortion, then fix it even if the meter is happy. a meter is a general tool, it's not really a surgical one.

of course, you don't need all this "advice", i just can't help myself.

[garyb]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_level

[vascomusic]

Meter Madness

What your level meters tell you—and what they don’t:
http://www.presonus.com/community/Learn/meter-madness

[ShogunSpy]

Meter Madness

What your level meters tell you—and what they don’t:
http://www.presonus.com/community/Learn/meter-madness

Thanks that's a great link!