Sync in the pro studio or an amateur one!

[fraz]

Hi,

A while ago I got to the bottom of VST system link with the help of marc and using ADAT was the best way to do this with one of the 8 ins/outs being used for sync for VSL (VST System Link) whilst retaining upto 7 I/O for whatever I wish to use them for! - In only used 2 for a stereo signal-

One of the PCs' has Scope Pro/Pulsar 2 PCI cards with an option to add Power Sampler 3 DSP and ADAT expansion plate if need be but no word clock - A16 Ultra Mk2 & Fostex VC8

Other PC has Xite-1 on it - which has with A16 Ultra MK1 & A16 Ultra MK2-

If there was another audio interface (currently there isn't) would people sync computers using word clock?-so all the audio and vst instruments etc....would tick along nicely and in sync?-

I ask this cos I don't know and its a subject I've touched upon but don't understand enough about yet. All I know is that there is a word clock master and some slave devices.

Is word clock a substitute / replacement for VST system link? - I've included some of the kit I've got to help you guys identify the key elements that already have word clock on them.

In this scenario the objective would be to sync another computer (if need be) with another audio interface (not scope) over word clock???- and I'm asking what the best options would be. I would imagine say 8 channels from both scope computers going into this other computer which would have VSTi on etc... with MIDI possibly too......

Hope this is explained clearly enough! lol

[fraz]

It comes down to synchronisation - To ask the question(s) more eloquently! - If there are 3 computers in the setup, 2 of which have S|C & Creamware hardware with the 3rd computer having different audio hardware and wanting to use anything that a typical music techy would want to use like VSTi-external MIDI-fx etc.... What would be the most efficient way to synchronise the 3 computers?

[fraz]

OK no replies.... .....I'll ask something else!-

Can the Creamware / Sonic Core PCI interface cards installed in one PC be synchronised via word clock off of the A16 Ultra Mk2? - Or do I need a sync card for that? -

[garyb]

you need a sync card. also, there are different kinds of sync. one is for sequencers so that they move togther.
the other is digital sync so that the samples play back at the right time and in order. since samples(audio streams) are time stamped, all hardware must use the same clock. this is what word clock is for, syncing the digital clocks on multiple pieces of hardware.

if a piece of hardware doesn't have word clock, it must be synced via aes/ebu, sp/dif, adat, or whatever digital i/o it uses. word clock just makes syncing multiple pieces of hardware easier.

[fraz]

Yes I'm looking for a sync card-here on the forums----

OK I hear what your saying on sync-The two PC's I've got synced are done via System link over ADAT for Cubase-

If I added a third computer-(I may not)-I can see how I'd need word clock connection if a different audio interface was used (this is new to me) with a master clock device eg. Big Ben-and some slaved devices to the clock-

SO for example my ADAT A16 Ultra Mk2 has word clock on so that would be slaved with BNC cable but the A16 Ultra Mk1 and Fostrex VC8 don't have word clock so they have to be synced via ADAT ???? - So ALL digital devices NEED SYNC? - This is the idea right?

But if the PCI cards Pulsar 2 etc.... have the wordclock sync card are all the resulting ADAT I/O from the PCI already taken care of for sync?-

I can get very confused when a subject is new to me but I will get my head round it with a lot of help like with the system link!

[garyb]

yes, that's basically it.

clock(sync) can be sent via a digital output, so that's how say, an adat connection usually works. one adat device is master and it sends clock out it's adat output. the other device is slave and it receives clock via it's adat input. the problem is when you start getting a lot of devices connected together, it starts getting complicated getting a clock signal to each device. some devices only have digital outputs and must be master, so then things get really scary. bnc word clock is a way to send clock to a number of devices in a stable, clean way. to do this, each device needs a wordclock input and then you need a master clock/distributor to send clock to each device. bnc word clock cannot be used serially(from one device to another), it must be used in parallel(each unit having it's own port on the master clock) for stability. you can have a mix of wordclock and other methods, but all wordclock is cleaner and more likely to be stable.

[fraz]

Yes it does start to get complicated....

So with my setup 2 PC's-One with Scope PCI cards-the other with Xite-1-With VST system link-Would all these connections remain as they are?

BUT I would be adding to these connections in the form of a third computer that wouldn't have the same audio interface so wouldn't be VST system linked (but the other two would be)-However I would add a sync card to PC1 with word clock on-and a master clock unit attached to the 3rd computer-that would be master and make the appropriate connections in the hardware and also the connections within the Scope software-

Does all this check out in theory so far then Gary?-

So there could be an array of word clock connections and ADAT together (working happily?)

Which would lead on to a master clock unit - How many devices can these accommodate? -

If it is the case that a lot of the connections I've already made will be built upon then it does simplify the process for me a little as part of the headache is already overcome - Currently I'm just searching out if its more trouble than its worth in the long run-

Thanks for the input its really helpful....

[Bud Weiser]

Yes it does start to get complicated....

For lots of devices you need something like THIS http://apogeedigital.com/products/big-ben.php

and related BNC Word Clock inputs on your devices,- then build a "star type" sync network where the master clock is the center.
When you work w/ SCOPE PCI cards,- you´d need sync plates to get BNC inputs for each machine which houses at least one PCI card.
A16 Ultra and mk II converters have BNC inputs,- RME converters too.
I don´t know the original A16 converter ...

Correct me if I´m wrong because I don´t have such a setup,- but I expect, when all your audio cards are "slaves" being synced to the master clock via BNC Word Clock and the cards output ADAT optical to the to each card connected AD/DA converters,- these converters should get the correct clock via ADAT,- but it´s also possible to sync everything individual to the master clock.
All depends on the user setting of the individual devices and on the features of the connected devices though.
I´d prefer to sync everything individual to the master, except I run out of clock outputs on the master clock itself.

Bud

[fraz]

The PCI cards all in one PC- Scope Pro-Pulsar 2- and maybe Power Sampler with ADAT expansion plate (Luna)-Where does the sync plate connect to?-

All PCI cards cascaded

[Bud Weiser]

The PCI cards all in one PC- Scope Pro-Pulsar 2- and maybe Power Sampler with ADAT expansion plate (Luna)-Where does the sync plate connect to?-

All PCI cards cascaded

That´s exactly what I don´t know exactly because my SCOPE PCI card doesn´t have a sync plate too and I don´t have a multiple PCI card setup.
I assume the 1st one needs the sync plate.
(you connect the other(s) by these ribbon cables on top/across these cards,- so there is a card which is No.#1).

I hope Gary chimes in and correct me if I´m wrong.

Bud

[garyb]

connect the sync plate to one of the cards. any that fits.

a good clock is best, but even an ART sync gen can really help your sound by giving a stable clock signal from a central source. i have a Rosendahl Nanosyncs.

[fraz]

Also on the sync plate is a 9 pin connector for connecting to ADAT source & dest- What cables are used here? and where do they connect to? - - I've found some backups manuals for 3.1c! so I'll read these too. Maybe I wouldn't need the 9 pin connectors?

The Scope Pro and Pulsar 2 have a sync plate connector but the Power Sampler (Luna) does not -

These 9 pin connectors on the sync plate are for 3rd party hardware then? - Not Creamware or S|C or Ferrofish?

[garyb]

they're for ADAT machines, ignore them.

[fraz]

they're for ADAT machines, ignore them.

I'll happily ignore them..... ......one less thing to worry about ---- unless.....!

[fraz]

OK I think I've sourced a sync card for the PCI cards-but its not final yet.....

Assuming I've got all the hardware connections sorted out (we can discuss this another time) what problems are there likely to be with the DAW software using word clock?

FL Studio
Reason
Live
Orion
Cubase
Mu Labs

Some offer better features than others for sync-Cubase for example would be system linked for two computers with rewire etc...
and an attempt to use a 3rd possibly* with a different audio card to Xite but using word clock for sync with any of the above software but not using VST System link on 3rd PC-----that's the general idea- a combination of system link and word clock.
There's still a bit to get my head round to understand- so you'll have to excuse the jumbled explanations of things.....
Would word clock interfear with system link in any way?

[garyb]

the software gets clock from the card. word clock has nothing to do with it, clock is clock is clock.

[hubird]

at the same velocity that is

[garyb]

that clock is a completely different thing, so that's where clock is not clock.

[fraz]

at the same velocity that is

That's right over my head----- -----but you've swayed Gary in some way ----clock is clock & now it isn't...............

[garyb]

there are a number of clocks running in a computer environment. don't mix them up!

1. the time/date clock. this is the clock that hubird mentions relativityly(new word!). it marks your place in space in 4 dimensions. it's the regular clock like on the wall.

2. midi clock. this clock syncs midi events. it's tied to the time/date clock, but not really because operations on data are not really linear.

3. digital clock. this is the one the "word clock" refers to. it's purpose is to be sure that the organization of audio samples remains intact between devices. since digital data is transmitted in packets that are anything but a linear stream, each bundle of data needs a time stamp so that it can be played back in order. if there is more than one digital device involved, both need to share a clock, so that the time stamps from the first device make sense to the following devices.