METER SUCKAGE

[dawman]

Can anyone from the Scientific Community tell me why when I use any of the Scope meters, or any Native meters for that matter that I can play presets that are noticably louder than other but according to the meter are lower...?

I am trying to set all leads to -3-4db, and polyphonic background presets to -7-6db.
I can hear in my speakers and headphones zero difference between 3 or 4 leads and the meter tells me I am wrong...?

Can we really trust these Microsoft Meters..?

[dante]

Not saying this is it - but remember the discussion about the scaling on Analyzer ? Look at a rock mix and the bottom end is louder. Your presets will have varying amounts of high / low harmonics yes/no (?)

Perceived loudness will have something to do as well with harmonic content and maybe transients like the attack, not just sustain amplitude.

I'd trust my ears. Microsoft can earn my trust by hard work only But dont tell them that - I earn a living and pay for all my Scope gear by using thier software

[jksuperstar]

It might come down to Peak vs. RMS. Digital meters typically capture peaks, and maintain those values for a few seconds so you notice if you're doing something that digital can't handle...like over saturating. Analog meters are usually not measuring peaks, but an average energy (RMS) (especially those swinging needle meters).

I think of it like comparing a very dynamic signal (peak) vs a very compressed signal (RMS). The compressed signal could have a lower absolute peak volume, but it can also sound louder than dynamic signal.

Just a guess. Either way, you're audience won't see the meters

[dawman]

No they won't see the meters but I have several meters and can freeze them one at a time and then read the differences which are from 1-2db so I am using my ears, and to hell with these Peak and RMS meters.
I am going to use a Coleman 2 x 2 Analog Meter tomorrow from the Studio as I can't believe that Reaper, Plogue, Kontakt and Scope are all reading differently.
I will measue and report back as I haven't used a real meter since the Oberheim days and that's how we level-ed out our presets, but then again Analog sounded great maxxed out but I would turn everything up to max and then when I needed any gain would just raise the gain on the hardware EQ and leave the channels and master alone as the Effects and gain structure were set up right.
This digital stuff chaps my ass sometimes...

[Immanuel]

There is more to perceived loudness than peak and RMS readings. In particular, more distorted sounds will sound louder. And some types of distortion triggers our perception of a sound differently than other types of distortion.

[dawman]

I have Overdrive on all of the presets and I agree, more of this does enhance the volume percieved, but don't I perform for people who are percieving ...? And if so is there an audience meter device which might be more accurate....?............Just kidding.
I know you guys don't want to hear this but I use Solaris feedback through OD circuits since the default volume is kind of quiet, and JBowen actually mentioned this to me, but at that time I was already trying the new chef looped back into the mixer section1.

[jksuperstar]

Actually...yes. If you happen to have a meter that is "A-weighted" (or C-weighted), that represents the frequency range of the typical human, and is used for making psychoacoustic measurements, aka - perceived loudness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-weighting

(distorted sounds are generally louder because they add harmonics, which typically fall into the more sensitive part of the human hearing range. Ask Pete Townshend about that).

[bassdude]

Trust your ears and trust these.....

[dawman]

Yeah, that's what i am getting ready to use as these virtual thingys just don't seem to agree with my ears. Since my ears are pretty good, I mean I can look at a piano and hum the note, have someone play a four note cluster and I can select each note and it's order+ octave, I tend to trust them. Don't know if they nullify but I know they work.
I am going to use the Coleman my friend has and just use these virtual ones to let me know the sound turns to shit if it gets too close to the virtual red color..

[Bud Weiser]

I am going to use a Coleman 2 x 2 Analog Meter tomorrow from the Studio as I can't believe that Reaper, Plogue, Kontakt and Scope are all reading differently.

What about this ?
http://www.orban.com/meter/

This digital stuff chaps my ass sometimes...

Confirmed !

Bud

[Eanna]

I usually strap this across a bus if I want a decent view onto weighted loudness.
http://www.voxengo.com/product/span/
Lot of features, incl. Mid-Side and 5.1.

This baby is the nuts:
http://www.nugenaudio.com/visualizer.php

But yes, this is the final arbiter of fact with it comes to perceived loudness:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-c_c4pr3yvsk/T ... 439206.jpg

[dante]

I'd like to put in a vote for the combo of both - visual + audio.

For example, using G.O.S.T. Analyzer whilst I'm mastering for the last 3 weeks and then playing the mixes on iPhone and Car speakers gives me an overall correlation - a 'feel' if you like for the relationship between what I hear and what I see.

So pick one of the meters mentioned, go with it for a while and learn the combo.

[bassdude]

Yeah, that's what i am getting ready to use as these virtual thingys just don't seem to agree with my ears. ............

I'm hearing ya. A while ago I had a job to level out backng tracks for a female vocal trio. Normalise doesn' work, limiting doesn't work. Digital peak meters don't work. All that is left is to sit there and ride the faders using ears and above analogue meters.

[dawman]

Well the Colemen worked great, I don't expect this virtual stuff to be accurate on summing if it can't be accurate on a single stereo source.
But I can say it is consistently off by 2db on solo and sum.
I believe these meters are gauged at digital noise occuring on 0db and then figured anything below it must be accurate.
Now that I know where they are gauged, and most seem to be the same I can pretty much run channels and master at -4db.
I like the sound of Scope so I don't want my mixers master FX having Limiting or Compression, but after the mixer (Post) I run it through the (Pre) BX Control for the mono sum/stereo width treats to the Analog Destination Module and this works really well on my 2000 watt 8" Cabs.
I can use all of the ITB Meters now from Weaper, Spubase and Scope now knowing I just need to change my concept of Gain a little.