Problem re-load a Scope project which is utilizing 95% DSP

[ehasting]

Hello,

I am doing some stability testing of my system after fighting a problem with an STDM bus cable on my Scope (5.1) PCI setup (1xScope15,2xPulsar2).
Its all running rather fine now, but i do have a problem loading project which is using 80-95% of the DSP back. I usually get this out of capacity message box where i can retry.

I am using a lot of DAS devices and the SpaceF mixer. Is this a common problem on the SCOPE system, that its hard to recall project almost using all DSP power?

Devices in use:
DAS Legend
DAS MasterIT
DAS C350L
DAS 1610++
DAS 2A
DAS Brickmaster
BlackBox Tempo Delay II
BlackBox Delay35
SC Interpole
Modular3 with Adern Flexor3 modules.
SpaceF M8
SpaceF SG8
SpaceF R247
SpaceF Stem 167
SC RMX160
SC-Plate

Or could the problem be that i am using mostly 3rd party devices which does not allocate DSP too well? Most of the devices are placed in the routing window, except 3 plugs (2A, 1610++ and C350L) that are as inserts into the SG8 and M8.


Rgs
Egil Hasting

[garyb]

it all depends on the order that things get loaded in on the dsps.

really, it's not realistic to expect that one can always load 100% of their dsps. there are a number of factors involved. most devices can have their load shared by multiple dsps, but some cannot. of those that can, if the dsps that they get loaded on physically are too far apart on the pcb or worse, on opposite ends of multiple cards, the device may not work because of latencies between dsps. small latencies can make trouble from strange phase issues to no sound from a device. big devices like synths with multiple voices only exacerbate the problem.

the option to do a "global optimisation" reshuffles the load order, so that things can fit a little better(hopefully). it's like making clothes and trying to cut the material so that the least amount of material is wasted. it may take a couple of tries to find an order that works in a problem project. obviously, there's no gauruntee that the order that worked when the project was made will be the order that the saved project loads in.

[Bud Weiser]

it all depends on the order that things get loaded in on the dsps.

really, it's not realistic to expect that one can always load 100% of their dsps. there are a number of factors involved. most devices can have their load shared by multiple dsps, but some cannot. of those that can, if the dsps that they get loaded on physically are too far apart on the pcb or worse, on opposite ends of multiple cards, the device may not work because of latencies between dsps. small latencies can make trouble from strange phase issues to no sound from a device. big devices like synths with multiple voices only exacerbate the problem.

the option to do a "global optimisation" reshuffles the load order, so that things can fit a little better(hopefully). it's like making clothes and trying to cut the material so that the least amount of material is wasted. it may take a couple of tries to find an order that works in a problem project. obviously, there's no gauruntee that the order that worked when the project was made will be the order that the saved project loads in.

Hi Gary !

I appreciate that explanation and now, we´re talking multiple PCI cards here,- is that also the case w/ XITE ?
Let´s say,- DSP slots #1 / 2 / 3 / 4 probably act like multiple (4) cards too and in case maxing out voices of big synths like Prodyssey p.ex.?

As an idea for global optimisation of heavy load projects after re-load,- would it be too difficult to code a routine which remembers in which order devices went into a project and where (DSP ID or similar)?
As a result, the "global optimisation" could/should happen while building a project and for each additional device being loaded and NOT after re-loading a project which worked and was saved before,- then refuses to load because of the optimisation.
I hope that´s understandable with my english.

Bud

[yayajohn]

maybe try saving the project without the reverbs and just load those up separate each time with saved presets. It might end up being faster than having to optimize each time you load the project.

[Bud Weiser]

maybe try saving the project without the reverbs and just load those up separate each time with saved presets. It might end up being faster than having to optimize each time you load the project.

Well, in the studio I don´t have any problems loading devices separately again after re-load of a basic project,- but I myself I´m working on autoload stuff (startup project) to make gigging possible as a keyboardplayer in future again.
This will include big synths and aux FX attached to the mixer w/ pre-wired ADAT modules for analog inputs for my keyboards and a few additional rack modules,- all MIDI CCs and preset bank loading too.
When SCOPE 6 comes w/ advanced MIDI control, that should be possible, replacing a ton of bulky gear w/ XITE-1 and a AD/DA like the Ferrofish A16mkII.
When my crewguy has set up my keys and boots the machine, I´m most often not present and then it loads what it loads and there´s not much time for troubleshooting in most cases then.

Well, I think for the future only,- 2013 ... so there´s some time left.

Bud

[garyb]

locking some things to specific dsps may help. also, saving the synths with only one voice and then adding voices after opening might help. Jimmy has plenty of experience with this sort of thing. my keyboardist uses Scope but doesn't have a problem. his setup is certainly more basic than yours though.

otherwise, you will need to get there early and double check the setup before you need to go to stage. you should have plenty of time before the show to be sure that you have a setup that loads reliably, or that will always load after one or two oprimizations. it shouldn't be a big deal.

[ehasting]

Thanks for the feedback!. I just wanted to know if its normal.... and since it is, i will learn how to work with it .

[Bud Weiser]

locking some things to specific dsps may help.

Correct, that´s what I do w/ specific devices.
I´m not sure if they are on the same DSPs after a re-load though,- nothing shows that,- but it works until XITE DSP meter shows ~50%.

also, saving the synths with only one voice and then adding voices after opening might help. Jimmy has plenty of experience with this sort of thing.

Yes, Jimmy was very helpful and we had a lot of PMs on this.
I have his project for study, but what I do w/ the synths, he mostly does all in Modular,- and I´m not very familiar w/ Modular up to now and don´t have all the 3rd party stuff he has.

Nonetheless, my last project worked without the need to load w/ minmized polyphony and max out later.
New issues came only when I wanted to load MORE !
There was a no go w/ STS-4000 and Vocodizer together and w/ all the other synths already loaded in the project.
It was all about trying to squeeze out as much as possible, but in real world there´s the option not to use STS or Vocodizer.
But that´s not ideal or as it should be.
The devices are in the software package, so I wanna use ´em together w/ the others.

Ideally and w/ SCOPE 6, I hope for the option to load as much as I can like setting up a big rack and use that as a startup project, also w/ STS sampler(s),- then choose from the palette of presets in pre-configurated preset banks for each device always and over MIDI.

The other issue for me is the MIDI CC list save/recall, separately for every device in the project.
It´s the upcoming most important task for me because, by private reasons, I had no time to look deeper into it.
In august I have ... and Jimmy offered workarounds.
I have to check if that works for me and w/ my project, but don´t get rid of the impression MIDI CC lists lose some entries randomly.
It can be I do something wrong when I save the stuff because I had also the case the list being completely blank for B2003.

my keyboardist uses Scope but doesn't have a problem. his setup is certainly more basic than yours though.

Basic in what extend ?
Count of devices or MIDI CC wise ?
If he uses p.ex. the factory configurated standard controllers for B2003 like leslie speed (mod wheel or after touch) he will never run into an issue.
Now,- I need these controllers for other purposes and I change almost anything for B2003 because my Kurzweil PC3 model offers all kinds of MIDI CC adjustments other keyboards normally don´t offer,- p.ex. the range of the MIDI CC number controller.
With the mod wheel, I control the chorus/vibrato settings C 1-3 / V 1-3, but I also control the percussion harmonics and B2003 offers not only 2nd and 3rd harmonic but more, so "ranges" within the MIDI scale 1 - 127 fit B2003´s 2nd & 3rd harmonic settings,- not only on/off (MIDI 1 or 127).
Just only 1 example, there´s much more,- and it works as long as SCOPE is running.
But reload the project and the MIDI CC list has changed.

you should have plenty of time before the show to be sure that you have a setup that loads reliably

Ehhmmmm,- that´s for the catering (and such) !!!

, or that will always load without[*] one or two oprimizations.

* I fixed that for ya

it shouldn't be a big deal.

That´s what she said !



Bud

[garyb]

we just load a B-2003 and a synth or two and use a vsti for piano, strings and horns. he only has a couple of Pulsar1s and a Pulsar2. in reality, we don't need more than a handful of sounds in a show. depending on the type of music, one might need a whole lot more sounds than we use. do you really need THAT many?

[Bud Weiser]

we just load a B-2003 and a synth or two and use a vsti for piano, strings and horns. he only has a couple of Pulsar1s and a Pulsar2. in reality, we don't need more than a handful of sounds in a show. depending on the type of music, one might need a whole lot more sounds than we use. do you really need THAT many?

Gary, it don´t depends on what I personally need.
When I´d do the fusion stuff I did from the mid 70th to mid 80th,- I´d be fine w/ a Fender Rhodes and my Minimoog D or a Prophet 5.

When I became a studio session artist end 70th ´til mid 80th, the demands of producers were the latest sounds and gear available, plus a performer being able to deliver and to handle.
So, the collection of gear started.
After doing all the recording, the signed artists I recorded for started touring,- so all we did in the studio had to be ported over on stage and the dumbest music needed tons of patches, splits and layers,- especially when computers and MIDI allowed excessive usage of keys and modules in production.
There were at least 2 keyboardplayers necessary to cover the stuff and it never changed because all the productions up to day are done in computers, then go on the road and it must sound like the CD.

Actually I don´t gig because of hip joint issues and I´m far away from recovery,- but I prepare for gigging again,- it makes better income than recording (and selling) music.
I wouldn´t change tour-rigs for every tour,- it´s much too cumbersome and too much programming.
I set up a rig and that´s it for all, big or small, then switch presets over MIDI and programm splits/layers during rehearsals from the remote controller of my PMM88E which is lightning fast.

When I make money, it´s not my music and I get payed from whoever he is or will be,- if he wants something, I have to realize that fast,- that´s the problem with this kind of work.
Not many time for rehearsals and programming, double checking and such,- the gear must work, always, and it is in the hands of roadies who set up he gear and do the line-/soundcheck already while the bus of the band is on the highway.
These guys travel overnite, not the musicians.

I try to realize w/ XITE-1 in the synth department because I doubt native VST stuff is that stable.
If XITE-1 and SCOPE can do that (it has that potential !) and w/ it´s extremely small form factor and portability,- S|C has 1 marketing segment more in addition to the home- or pro-studio purpose,- and I have extremely small gear which saves space in a truck, runs once it´s up and behaves like hardware w/ lowest latency possible.
The agencies save money w/ everything,- space in truck(s) and even less flightcases to rent and such.

The price of a XITE-1 relativates thinking about what a flagship MIDI multimode hardware keyboard costs,- p.x. a KORG Kronos or comparable,- and also these fight w/ polyphony and CPU power when it comes to complex setups.
And there´s the latency because they are based on Linux or XPembedded Intel Atom mini computers and use USB for internal audio/MIDI.

So, all depends on the realtime MIDI w/ SCOPE/XITE as also on the reliable total recall of MIDI CC assignments and patches.
Switching projects or unload/load DSPsynths during a show is "no go",- XITE-1 load times are too slow to do that.
You have to set up a maxed out machine w/ total recall.

Bud

[garyb]

sure, it can do that.

if you have a problem with midi assignment recall, the easiest work around is just to make a midi preset. that takes mere seconds to initialize.

[dante]

Bud, did you check out tgstgs new free device, the preset list ? Can control up to 8 devices. Maybe it can aid a live situation.

http://forums.planetz.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=31166

I'd agree in a general sense of there seems to be more potential to be unlocked (software wise by S|C) in XITE regards supporting LIVE work, judging the amount of work the likes of you and Jimmy have to do to coax the maximum out of it to 'pre-load' a live set's worth of sounds. No idea about the technical challenges in S|C doing so though....thats always another story.

[Bud Weiser]

Bud, did you check out tgstgs new free device, the preset list ? Can control up to 8 devices. Maybe it can aid a live situation.

http://forums.planetz.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=31166

I'd agree in a general sense of there seems to be more potential to be unlocked (software wise by S|C) in XITE regards supporting LIVE work, judging the amount of work the likes of you and Jimmy have to do to coax the maximum out of it to 'pre-load' a live set's worth of sounds. No idea about the technical challenges in S|C doing so though....thats always another story.

Yep, thx, I´ve discovered this device yesterday afternoon and downloaded to my office machine, but is not on my DAW until now.
I´ll have a look at it when I find the time.
Until end of upcoming week, I don´t have enough time to go deep into the XITE and SCOPE again, but look for all info I can get to find out what I did wrong w/ storing and recalling (MIDI Controller-) presets because I created these and stored, but it might be, these were´nt stored permanently and a s a result, the MIDI Ctrl list (Controller Settings - B2003) was blank after recall of the project.

I´ll reply to Gary´s post and discuss because there are 2 options:

1.)
It´s me doing mistakes
2.)
Scope 5.1 32Bit on Win XP SP3 loses MIDI Ctrl. preset info partially or completely even the (general) "preset bank", containing all the parameter preset banks as well as the MIDI Controller bank and all autoindexed , was saved.

That said,- I never did that w/ SCOPE 4 and my 15DSP card, because that being a friend´s gift, it was my "check out Scope" gear I hadn´t in mind to use outside my home,- but it was the trigger to buy XITE-1 because I recognized soon I want more DSP power and a higher SCOPE version.
The "little" card is a nice addition though ...

Bud

[Bud Weiser]

sure, it can do that.

if you have a problem with midi assignment recall, the easiest work around is just to make a midi preset. that takes mere seconds to initialize.

O.k.,- if "midi preset" is what for me the "MIDI Controller" bank is, I did a MIDI preset for B-2003 and lost it by recalling the project.
Here´s what I do:

1)
I have MIDI CC numbers and ranges assigned, on a MIDI channel, in a ZONE and to all the physical controllers my masterkeyboard offers and it works,- guaranteed !
2.)
I right-click on a rocker-switch, drawbar or whatever it is I want to control over MIDI and the MIDI Ctrl Assignment configuration dialogue opens ...
3.)
I move the physical MIDI control button/slider etc. and the MIDI Ctrl Assignment window shows the number of that controller as "NEW".
4.)
I click (+) = assigned and it works
5.)
I repeat that for all the physical controllers/MIDI Ctrl numbers and B-2003 parameters, and it works.

Now,- what to do to store these settings permanently ?

Do I have to save the MIDI Controller bank separately and probably under a new name like "My B2003 MIDI CC Bank" (if that is possible), or the overall preset FILE for B2003, or only the (my) preset bank I created under a new name w/ only one organ preset (I only need one preset because I controll realtime),- or what ?

The logic of handling the parameter preset banks and MIDI Controller bank(s), to me is somewhat irritating.

Logic for me would be (not to lose the original factory controllers),- copy that bank (MIDI Controller) and rename 1st, then change all the controllers as described above and close that window or press "save" if that is necessary, autoassign again.

But I´m not sure if several different MIDI Controller banks are allowed/working within a Preset File of a given device.
Are they ?
The manual is spartanic in this direction.

What I did was,- I re-saved the overall preset FILE for B2003, containing all the factory presets banks, the MIDI Controller bank (w/ the assupmtion changes are permanent) and my own bank which I created for testing,- assuming the changes made to the MIDI controllers will be automatically stored anyway once I clicked the (+) for each B2003 parameter/MIDI Controller number.

In addition, when I close a project and/or close SCOPE, it asks if I want to save all the changes made to the project file and I do with YES.

Now I wonder why I lose the MIDI Controller assignments and the MIDI Controller bank´s list is blank after recall of the project.

Not enough,- when I save/store a project,- why aren´t ALL assignments I did in that project stored permanently until I make changes again and re-save.
This must work globally regardless of all individual Preset- and MIDI Controller banks I create for single devices and individual recall on demand.

Bud

[garyb]

in the device presets window, there is a "midi" folder. you can make a preset for that instrument that can recall all midi assignments. this works.

[dante]

Click ! Penny drops ! I always wondered what that was for - thx GB !

Doh !

[garyb]

[Bud Weiser]

in the device presets window, there is a "midi" folder. you can make a preset for that instrument that can recall all midi assignments. this works.

I´m shocked !
Have to check that out, thx !!!

If that´s the solution and I´ve overseen that, how dumb am I ... (?)

When I see my long post and your short reply ....

thx again



Bud

[garyb]

[dante]

Lemme know if it works for your purposes Bud coz Im tracking MIDI hints for ScopeRise.