headphone speed

[kensuguro]

lol. I popped in the head-fi forum for a bit and found this guy talking about the "speed" of iems.. (and tests it with high speed metal because it's fast) I cringed man. What in the world is speed. Response time? I seriously doubt a casual listener can discern response time.. not like that fiddle with comps all the time. heh, audiophiles..

[the19thbear]

???? The speed?? That would be the speed of light! It doesnt come any faster than that
I dont understand how a certain signal could move faster through any material than other, as long as it is conducting.. But hey! I might be wrong:) would love to talk to that guy and learn.

[garyb]

well, there's transient times for the transducer...













[insert wry emoticon]

[kensuguro]

ya, I think they're talking about the response time of the driver.. or at least in conceptually that's what they're imagining. But they give examples like "I can hear the every single kick!", or "I can hear every single note of the guitar solo" which makes me seriously doubt they have any clue what they're talking about. I mean a lot of that is just cognition, and them not being musicians or being untrained makes it that much harder for them to even pick out different parts of the mix.

Funny description I see all over head fi is "with these, I'm hearing parts that I didn't even know existed!". I mean, realistically, how bad does a pair of headphones have to be to literally mask out a part. Especially cans that get mentioned in an audiophile forum.. That's bad cognition all the way. The notion of untrained people judging $1000 gear just makes me laugh. It's like the weekend photographer who has better gear than a working professional.

[astroman]

oh they can get even more funny when they describe phase misalignments as 'opening soundstage... never been so wide'

fwiw... eventually got a pair of old AKG 501 from ebay.
You really don't see how dirty those earpads can become, not even on good photos.
Removing and throwing them into the trash bin was just a 5 second deal - love that construction.
Had aquired pads in advance together with guitar strings and stuff once... just in case...
The 501s have a more pronouced bass than my previous 301s, but not as disco-like as in current 701s.
I'm really happy with them

cheers, Tom

[valis]

Having been on the head-fi forums for several years, I'd say that it's suffering from the same thing that Gearslutz, hydrogenaudio and many other known forums are suffering from. In fact ask people old enough, and they'll point out that usenet suffered the same fate (referred to as the Eternal September), and I'm sure somewhere someone still feels like their beloved facebook/myspace/orkut/friendster/iOS app/irc network/etc was taken over by a bunch of ignorant noobs...and that's perhaps accurate

[Cochise]

...Funny description I see all over head fi is "with these, I'm hearing parts that I didn't even know existed!". I mean, realistically, how bad does a pair of headphones have to be to literally mask out a part. Especially cans that get mentioned in an audiophile forum.. That's bad cognition all the way. The notion of untrained people judging $1000 gear just makes me laugh. It's like the weekend photographer who has better gear than a working professional.

In my experience, using different headset for mixing purpose, a different frequency response can make a part more or less outstanding, indeed; to the point to make a specific part definitely, or barely audible in the whole mix context.
...At least... different frequency response is the explanation I've given to myself for that till now...

Anyway, one of these days I'll take out one of those thread about good headphones for mixing, since I think I need a better pair..

o...fwiw... eventually got a pair of old AKG 501 from ebay.
You really don't see how dirty those earpads can become, not even on good photos.
Removing and throwing them into the trash bin was just a 5 second deal - love that construction.
Had aquired pads in advance together with guitar strings and stuff once... just in case...

..I guess they would be ruined trying with a steam cleaner...

[valis]

Headphones do actually have rather severe frequency response deficiencies and resonances in the low end when compared to your typical midmarket (and up) set of studio monitors. Of course by the time you take studio monitors out of the anechoic chamber and stick them in a real room...

However I find that I can exploit these 'deficits' for other uses. Sony MDRv6 or MDR7506 'professional' cans are a bit too 'thumpy' for me to use them for critical or longterm listening (with the exception of the 'tweaked' japan-only cans) as I get severe ear fatigue when there's any kind of low end presence (kick/bass etc). But when I use the same 40mm or 50mm drivers for djing in the form of the MDR-V600 (40mm) or MDR-V900 (50mm) not only do I find the larger earcups on these models more comfortable and isolating but that same low end hump ceases to be a deficiency and helps me hear the kick/snare 'body' over extremely large PA's.

Along those lines Sony MDR-SA5000's transient response is supposed to be so 'fast' that people find them to be too 'bright'...I can see this being a serious advantage for someone who has to do a lot of surgical wave editing.

I also considered Sennheiser HD650's when I got my Beyer DT880 pro's but they're so 'pleasing' that I was worried the hifi nature would actually obscure problems with my mixes rather than help with them. I hear they make great 'listening' cans and even know a few people who DJ with them...

[Cochise]

DT880... semiclosed back... they look interesting. ...250 ohms... Do they need headphones amp?

[garyb]

yes, and how fast are they?

[dawman]

I have an idea for headphone speed.
Like the way I routed my windshield wiper fluid through my ashtray with Jager, I can envision a blaster with release valves for methamphetamines to be snorted.
Nothing like a big packing when ear fatigue sets in..........

[valis]

DT880... semiclosed back... they look interesting. ...250 ohms... Do they need headphones amp?

Mine work fine off of my mixing board, but I made sure I checked the acceptable impedence for the headphone output on my mixer first (which bridges off of the 2nd mixer bus that goes to the 'studio mains' with its own variable resistor volume control.)

[Cochise]

yes, and how fast are they?

Doesn't it even depend on the amp?
Which other factor does come into play? Diaphragm diameter? Coil weight and structure?
Hard to suppose a transductor working up to 35 kHz to be slow...

I'm more focused on how they translates, though.
I've been reading about; now I'm not that sure I need a 'better' headphone. Listening fatigue is an important issue, but I agree with someone saying that things sounding right on a nice headset not necessarily sound good on average audio systems...

Mine work fine off of my mixing board, but I made sure I checked the acceptable impedence for the headphone output on my mixer first (which bridges off of the 2nd mixer bus that goes to the 'studio mains' with its own variable resistor volume control.)

I use to connect headphones straight at the Luna output... one of my headsets is 600 Ohms (K 240 monitor)...
I remember this impedance issue has already been discussed here times ago...

[garyb]

actually, i was being a little bit sarcastic with the "speed" crack, but irony never translates to the internet well...

obviously, all of the real headphones discussed are well worth the discussion. i was just cracking on the ignorant comment mentioned in the original post...

[valis]

I use to connect headphones straight at the Luna output... one of my headsets is 600 Ohms (K 240 monitor)...
I remember this impedance issue has already been discussed here times ago...

I am averse to connecting anything directly to soundcard outputs these days, unless it's a headphone output on a soundcard for mobile use or etc. However if I ever get the Nagra DT48S or Beyer DT48a (or maybe cost-no-object HD800) then I might start considering a proper headphone amp that's able to match the impedence of the drivers I own (DT48S/a/e are 25 or 50ohm, the 5 ohm versions are for audiometry iirc.)

Of course if you want to be properly HIPHOP about your headphones then it's all about the Stax 4070 Electrostatic Headphone at roughly $1800 a pair. At that cost your grills better not be hovering over that speed, step right up to the top grade lady and chase her down with a mitsu and a few gogo dancers...

[astroman]

...
I use to connect headphones straight at the Luna output... one of my headsets is 600 Ohms (K 240 monitor)...
I remember this impedance issue has already been discussed here times ago...

afaik 600 Ohm is the smallest acceptable load a 5532 Opamp (as in the Luna and Scope output stages) can drive.
It doesn't freak out if you plug (more common) 32 Ohms in, but Valis approach is certainly the better one.

cheers, Tom

[Cochise]

...they give examples like "I can hear the every single kick!", or "I can hear every single note of the guitar solo" which makes me seriously doubt they have any clue what they're talking about. I mean a lot of that is just cognition, and them not being musicians or being untrained makes it that much harder for them to even pick out different parts of the mix.
Funny description I see all over head fi is "with these, I'm hearing parts that I didn't even know existed!". I mean, realistically, how bad does a pair of headphones have to be to literally mask out a part. Especially cans that get mentioned in an audiophile forum.. That's bad cognition all the way. The notion of untrained people judging $1000 gear just makes me laugh. It's like the weekend photographer who has better gear than a working professional.

Sometimes I can hear different shades using different equipment. I'm not exactly talking about parts; I consider myself trained enough to catch every note if the part ain't very very fast; but I find things blend differently when I listen at them through different audio systems... The prevalence of a part on another at any point of a song can give quite a different perspective...
About hearing in mixing experience... exactly knowing parts in every detail, focusing the attention on a single part for too long , listening fatigue - the mental one I mean - ... these are things usually driving me down wrong paths... sometimes things sound so different on the same audio system, the morning after; what I'm trying to say is: sometimes tiredness makes the mental image of the music to prevail on the real sound..
How do you use to manage this kind of issues, guys?

afaik 600 Ohm is the smallest acceptable load a 5532 Opamp (as in the Luna and Scope output stages) can drive.
It doesn't freak out if you plug (more common) 32 Ohms in, but Valis approach is certainly the better one.

At now I haven't got enough space for a consolle in my room.
Staying to what I've recently read in headphone topics, the lack of bass frequencies I experience using my 600 Ohms K240 could be kind of underdriving...
At this point I would like to open a thread about headphone amps...

[garyb]

mixing should never be done in cans. checked maybe, but not mixed....

[Cochise]

mixing should never be done in cans. checked maybe, but not mixed....

That's for panning issues afaik
C'mon Gary, I often can't use loudspeakers at all in my room; having almost no acoustic treatment I get fake frequency response... things sound differently if I just slightly move my head.
I've just ordered a new headphone... Do you mean the whole mixing process should never be done in cans? Tracks Eq, tracks levels, mix eq??

[garyb]

mixing should never be done in cans. checked maybe, but not mixed....

That's for panning issues afaik
C'mon Gary, I often can't use loudspeakers at all in my room; having almost no acoustic treatment I get fake frequency response... things sound differently if I just slightly move my head.
I've just ordered a new headphone... Do you mean the whole mixing process should never be done in cans? Tracks Eq, tracks levels, mix eq??

yep. but that doesn't matter, i'm not anyone's ruler. it's a bad idea, if you really care about the results. the right way is the right way for a reason. do something about the room and mix at moderate volumes on small speakers. that's the right way. one can get good results with the wrong way, once you learn the cans' limitations, but there are many more pitfalls involved. luckily, most of what people do is not really all that super important anyway...