Cans
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siriusbliss
- Posts: 3118
- Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2001 4:00 pm
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Re: Cans
I think it's been done.Cochise wrote:Just had this weird idea: what about using drink cans filled with sand to improve room acoustic? Perhaps in the corners...
I've also seen people use the stones that are used along the lane lines on the California freeways. Very dense.
G
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siriusbliss
- Posts: 3118
- Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Cupertino, California US
- Contact:
Re: Cans
But I think the surface area of the cans might cause some strange reflections.Cochise wrote:I think I'll try this cans thing
Worth doing some research first.
Greg
Re: Cans
Cylindrical surface should anyway diffuse instead of reflect the way a nude wall does...
I was thinking to set multiple layers of thin aluminium cans filled with sand in room corners in asymmetrical pattern for bass frequencies damping...
I was thinking to set multiple layers of thin aluminium cans filled with sand in room corners in asymmetrical pattern for bass frequencies damping...
Last edited by Cochise on Sun May 23, 2010 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Cans
I'm no pro, but have dabbled a bit in acoustics. It might work great & it is, well, dirt cheap to try. It could be really easy to move them around, & use a cheap measurement mic & free software to get RT60 measurements, and so forth which you probably already know about. 
The only thing I can come up with, using my highly advanced Google-Fu is:
http://www.stormingmedia.us/74/7400/A740015.html
(edit:
)
The only thing I can come up with, using my highly advanced Google-Fu is:
http://www.stormingmedia.us/74/7400/A740015.html
(edit:
)
Re: Cans
I think that would make a great support structure. Get enough of the same exact height together and make a small platform on top, then mount something much larger cylindrically perhaps? Or make some layered sculpture?
If it was something more solid or less flowing than sand u could perhaps make some 'standoffs' for a frame or two on the wall as well? I've been keen lately on the idea of making some homemade realtraps that stand off the wall. I also want 2 boxes over the studio windows that allow light through, probably with pillow stuffing & thin white cloth/muslin on each side.
If it was something more solid or less flowing than sand u could perhaps make some 'standoffs' for a frame or two on the wall as well? I've been keen lately on the idea of making some homemade realtraps that stand off the wall. I also want 2 boxes over the studio windows that allow light through, probably with pillow stuffing & thin white cloth/muslin on each side.
Re: Cans
I don't think it will work as intended...
the surface form has already been mentioned. With such a relatively small radius it will probably work more lens-like than as a 'diffusor' (which big poles of concrete in a parking garage seem to do).
The sand cannot damp all the resonance of the metal properly, there will still be a metallic sound.
Lot's of cans might add up to a significant emphasis of such frequencies.
If round surfaces would work this way, you'd probably see more of them in diffuser constructions - in fact I can't even remember a single device built accord to this principle...
cheers, Tom
the surface form has already been mentioned. With such a relatively small radius it will probably work more lens-like than as a 'diffusor' (which big poles of concrete in a parking garage seem to do).
The sand cannot damp all the resonance of the metal properly, there will still be a metallic sound.
Lot's of cans might add up to a significant emphasis of such frequencies.
If round surfaces would work this way, you'd probably see more of them in diffuser constructions - in fact I can't even remember a single device built accord to this principle...
cheers, Tom
Re: Cans
Drinks cans filled with sand will be a pain in the ass to set up and has the potential to get very very messy. Also, aluminum cans filled with sand will act like storage heaters - not really something you want down there on the MED!! 
If you're intent on experimenting with using some sand there's a couple of cheap things you could try -
1) Get some old & free rubber vehicle tyres and cut them into quarters, stack them up in the corner to create a quadrant shape filling each section with sand as you build it. You might need to silicone the sections together.
2) Build a tall triangular shaped column from a dense material like MDF (or similar) which is glued and screwed together. Cover the exterior of the column with carpet. Fill it with sand.
Or you could just build or buy proper, tried and tested free-standing traps....
If you're intent on experimenting with using some sand there's a couple of cheap things you could try -
1) Get some old & free rubber vehicle tyres and cut them into quarters, stack them up in the corner to create a quadrant shape filling each section with sand as you build it. You might need to silicone the sections together.
2) Build a tall triangular shaped column from a dense material like MDF (or similar) which is glued and screwed together. Cover the exterior of the column with carpet. Fill it with sand.
Or you could just build or buy proper, tried and tested free-standing traps....
Re: Cans
I saw an extreme isolation booth for drums that was insane.
2 tons of sand underneath an enclosed area of space that looked like a miniature version of the transporter room from Star Trek.
It had total enclosure by swinging wooden doors, that could be left open, or closed to any degree desirable.
I thought it was a great ProTools studio for its time ( '93 ) but I heard no difference what so ever in the drums but naturally didn't tell the managing operator/owner that.
They had the finest builder who built a custom desk for the Allen & Heath console made with rare Honduran Mahogany, etc.
At the end if the day it sounded just like every other new ADAT demo around...
But the studio was drop dead georgeous and had a Pinball Room where I naturally spent most of my time. Nowdays I see bedrooms w/ Bass Traps if Im lucky.........
2 tons of sand underneath an enclosed area of space that looked like a miniature version of the transporter room from Star Trek.
It had total enclosure by swinging wooden doors, that could be left open, or closed to any degree desirable.
I thought it was a great ProTools studio for its time ( '93 ) but I heard no difference what so ever in the drums but naturally didn't tell the managing operator/owner that.
They had the finest builder who built a custom desk for the Allen & Heath console made with rare Honduran Mahogany, etc.
At the end if the day it sounded just like every other new ADAT demo around...
But the studio was drop dead georgeous and had a Pinball Room where I naturally spent most of my time. Nowdays I see bedrooms w/ Bass Traps if Im lucky.........
Re: Cans
Interesting. Looks like they used software models for 2d and 3d calculations...capacitor wrote:...The only thing I can come up with, using my highly advanced Google-Fu is:
http://www.stormingmedia.us/74/7400/A740015.html
(edit:
Re: Cans
Greg, Tom and Shroomz... yes, I didn't consider the lens effect of cans disposed closely side by side. It could result very messy.
Tom, I don't think though that thin aluminium cans filled with sand can resonate so much.
Valis' idea of kind of cans sculpture is tempting indeed... It could end having bedroom with basstraps perhaps.
_johnny
Tom, I don't think though that thin aluminium cans filled with sand can resonate so much.
Valis' idea of kind of cans sculpture is tempting indeed... It could end having bedroom with basstraps perhaps.
_johnny
Re: Cans
actually... I don't have any real experiences with those either.
maybe it depends on the granularity of the fillment
... unless you have thousands of cans... why not make some silly stuff with concrete ?
It's not difficult and pretty cheapo, too
cheers, Tom
maybe it depends on the granularity of the fillment
... unless you have thousands of cans... why not make some silly stuff with concrete ?
It's not difficult and pretty cheapo, too
cheers, Tom
Re: Cans
Which stuff, sculture or basstraps?
I can't figure out using concrete...
As for cans, they don't actually recycle aluminium here. We have differenziated waste disposal, but in spite of increasing fees the thing is in experimental stage since something like ten years. We differenziate paper, plastic/aluminium and organic, they collect all togheter and then discharge everything in the same municipal tip. So...my weird idea could even be a personal form of recycling.
Still silly I guess... but way smarter than the yard boss that used/PRETENDED to burn yard waste (lot of plastic brick packages and wood planks) ten meters from my windows till I went down there with policemen (after I succedeed in convincing them).
I will end with real basstraps... one of these days
I can't figure out using concrete...
As for cans, they don't actually recycle aluminium here. We have differenziated waste disposal, but in spite of increasing fees the thing is in experimental stage since something like ten years. We differenziate paper, plastic/aluminium and organic, they collect all togheter and then discharge everything in the same municipal tip. So...my weird idea could even be a personal form of recycling.
Still silly I guess... but way smarter than the yard boss that used/PRETENDED to burn yard waste (lot of plastic brick packages and wood planks) ten meters from my windows till I went down there with policemen (after I succedeed in convincing them).
I will end with real basstraps... one of these days
Last edited by Cochise on Thu May 27, 2010 11:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Cans
bass traps usually involve space. they usually work by killing the waves in the air which literally get trapped in the cavity between a membrane and a wall or walls. i don't think sand really does that. usually sand is used to isolate things like floors or stands because the sand doesn't transmit mechanical vibrations so well. a can or pvc tube would be too reflective and while the sand really wouldn't be except as an extreme diffuser, waves of air would never come in contact with the sand, so it would do nothing.
sand might work if it was in socks or bags because then the bag or sock wouldn't be reflective and since air might penetrate the material and the sand, it might have absorbtive qualities. sand would be good for blocking sound to or from the outside, because it would dampen mechanical vibrations in the wall, which would help prevent waves of air from being created by the wall vibrating.
sand might work if it was in socks or bags because then the bag or sock wouldn't be reflective and since air might penetrate the material and the sand, it might have absorbtive qualities. sand would be good for blocking sound to or from the outside, because it would dampen mechanical vibrations in the wall, which would help prevent waves of air from being created by the wall vibrating.
Re: Cans
Yes Gary, thats the principle of real basstraps; I was just wondering if, filling the corners with cheap cylinrdical shapes disposed not necessarily side by side close, it could anyway reduce bass frequencies enhancement by breaking/scattering waves. The purpose of sand in the cans would only be to avoid resonances, since thin aluminium surface (even plastic, as bassdude suggests...I would try different diameters together though) transmits waves to the air inside.
However, as soons as I collect enough cans, I wish to invite you mates here to help me build a gigantic can sculpture in the municipality square, one of these nights.
Ehi! This is kind of brainstorming! Isn't it?
However, as soons as I collect enough cans, I wish to invite you mates here to help me build a gigantic can sculpture in the municipality square, one of these nights.
Ehi! This is kind of brainstorming! Isn't it?
Re: Cans
I like the can sculpture idea.
I've seen someone document build basstraps out of cylindrical fiberglass insulation before (meant to go around large pipes, 2-3 feet in diameter inside) and seal that with something akin to liquid nails. He may have filled with polyfill as well, which is what I wanted inside my muslim-covered 'frames'. Muslim over rockwool or polyfill is something Red Muze once suggested to me for a walltrap, but that actually seemed ideal to me for a 'window box' covering so people still can't see in but I get more light than my current 'blanket over the window' approach gives me (white polyfill & white muslim would seem to scatter the midrange reflections that windows give AND let light through.)
I think the realtraps style that you build yourself by filling the exterior case with rockwool are also appealing. I have some interesting floor-bedding things that my wife bought years ago that I currently use for the same purpose (bass trapping) but they don't hang nearly as well or look quite as nice (these are bright red and look like a 6 foot long 70's era couch cover.)
I also have record shelves (have enough records to cover an entire wall), a futon/couch with a queen sized mattress standing up against the wall behind it (kill some standing waves) and handily obscured by a wall hanging, and lots of extra pillows in the back of the room. A few applications of auralex in here over time as well and I don't really feel like I have an extreme issues, but I'm lucky in that this room is rather large and there's an acoustic ceiling (meaning there's a foot of airspace above this room) and relatively thin walls...so it's much better than my last two workspaces were.
I've seen someone document build basstraps out of cylindrical fiberglass insulation before (meant to go around large pipes, 2-3 feet in diameter inside) and seal that with something akin to liquid nails. He may have filled with polyfill as well, which is what I wanted inside my muslim-covered 'frames'. Muslim over rockwool or polyfill is something Red Muze once suggested to me for a walltrap, but that actually seemed ideal to me for a 'window box' covering so people still can't see in but I get more light than my current 'blanket over the window' approach gives me (white polyfill & white muslim would seem to scatter the midrange reflections that windows give AND let light through.)
I think the realtraps style that you build yourself by filling the exterior case with rockwool are also appealing. I have some interesting floor-bedding things that my wife bought years ago that I currently use for the same purpose (bass trapping) but they don't hang nearly as well or look quite as nice (these are bright red and look like a 6 foot long 70's era couch cover.)
I also have record shelves (have enough records to cover an entire wall), a futon/couch with a queen sized mattress standing up against the wall behind it (kill some standing waves) and handily obscured by a wall hanging, and lots of extra pillows in the back of the room. A few applications of auralex in here over time as well and I don't really feel like I have an extreme issues, but I'm lucky in that this room is rather large and there's an acoustic ceiling (meaning there's a foot of airspace above this room) and relatively thin walls...so it's much better than my last two workspaces were.