Is MIDI control any better with 5.0?

[Chisel]

If you read my old posts you'll see that awhile back I gave the whole MIDI mapping thing a go and finally gave up. There were just too many sound glitches when trying to control the synths with my MIDI controllers. I'm wondering if they fixed this in 5.0 or has this feature remained untouched.

Thanks,
chisel316

[manybro]

I once had UAD and couldn't map all controllers, hope this aint the case with Sonic core platform.

[Chisel]

I once had UAD and couldn't map all controllers, hope this aint the case with Sonic core platform.

It's worse than just not mapping all controls. I had to ask for updated dlls before I could even get MiniMax & Pro12 working. B2003 doesn't even have an updated dll. You have to load the mapping everytime rather than have Scope load a default mapping automatically. Worst of all, the patches get scrambled when mapping is enabled which makes it unusable. On top of all this, the mapping itself seems to be quite buggy with mappings mysteriously disappearing after being set. So, my question is to those who have been using 5.0, is mapping any better or has it remained unchanged and unusable?

Thanks,
chisel316

[garyb]

I once had UAD and couldn't map all controllers, hope this aint the case with Sonic core platform.

It's worse than just not mapping all controls. I had to ask for updated dlls before I could even get MiniMax & Pro12 working. B2003 doesn't even have an updated dll. You have to load the mapping everytime rather than have Scope load a default mapping automatically. Worst of all, the patches get scrambled when mapping is enabled which makes it unusable. On top of all this, the mapping itself seems to be quite buggy with mappings mysteriously disappearing after being set. So, my question is to those who have been using 5.0, is mapping any better or has it remained unchanged and unusable?

Thanks,
chisel316

was that in xtc mode? not all devices are useable in xtc mode, but this can be worked around by renaming .dlls. otherwise, it's not that unusual for some devices to need an update after a new version. as to buggyness, the vst host or the contrroller may be part of the problem. controls are very stable in Scope mode.

as to ease of use, it's VERY easy to assign controllers in Scope, especially in Scope mode. personally, i only assign controllers to things that need to be available for a live performance, be it on te mixer or a synth or effect. i can set up the knob switch or fader in a moment, so i don't even bother with presets, it's just too easy(right click on the knob/fader/switch move the controller and click the add button). the controls GENERALLY work very well and smoothly and i've never had it not work. the downsides are that there are only 127 controller numbers available for each midi channel, so that you can't really assign a controller to every control on a bigger mixer(not that anyone really needs to do such a thing, although many would obviously want to), and that it IS midi which has decent, but not great resolution(some types of controls must be smoothed by the device's programmer, otherwise they can be steppy. most devices, that isn't a problem, but there are some where it is a problem).

[manybro]

That's the interesting thing....

With UAD and other platforms (not ssl) you can actually install the software in advance and test all the MIDI parameters beforehand.

Would be really nice if Scope plugins, especially in "xtc" mode could be handled this way.

[at0m]

manybro: why would you want to use 7bit CC# on XTC devices when your sequencer and other native software are controlled with 14bit? Even IF you could use all 128 controllers (from which a bunch are reserved as per MIDI protocol, not as per S|C's choice), it'll still be only 128. Mackie Mode for example lets you do many more! So why do you want to use controllers? Actually, I wonder why one would want to use XTC-mode at all, giving up on all the routing possibilities and modular.

So then, back to CC# and Scope mode. The 7bit Control Changes are only usefull in Scope mode. And yes, there is gaps, for example CC#123 is an All Notes Off message, and it's interpreted by the MVC (MIDI Voice Control), not by knobs or faders. It is sometimes sent after the sequencer stops. Or CC# 121, All Controllers Off. That's the one turning the volume to 0 when you assigned CC#1, modwheel, to mixer's channel 1. I've written whole pages on that here, and I think S|C didn't change much since. Like UAD, they need to cope with the MIDI protocol and its reservations.

Chisel, for the stepping one sometimes hears when controlling knobs remotely, that's part of the responsability or choice of the developer who made the device. Knobs in Scope are (hidden for the end-user) "de-zipped". This means that between the actual knob value and the controlled value in the devices circuit, there's can be a de-zipper, or some simple lowpass filter, which smoothens out the sometimes abruptly changing CC# values. Leaving out the de-zippers saves some DSP, but indeed makes though MIDI control.

I hope this clarifies a bit.

[Chisel]

Thanks for the replies, but I'm not talking about stepping. I'm talking about having the loaded patch sound wrong when the MIDI mapping preset is first loaded. I'm not interested in assigning a control knob here and there. I want to map my entire X-Station to the MiniMax so I can use it without my monitor on. I actually did it, and for the most part it works, but occassionally the mapping gets screwed up without me changing anything and once I load a mapping preset, I have to switch patches a few times before they start sounding correct. It's as if loading a mapping preset changes the parameters of the synth. This happens regardless of whether I'm in Scope or XTC mode.

Personally, I use both modes. I use XTC mode when I'm composing a song in Ableton Live so all of my Scope devices appear as VSTs and I can automate any parameters using automation envelopes in Live with ease! I use native mode when I'm programming the synths, using Modular, or just jamming without the need to record anything. Switching between modes is transparent. For native mode I launch SFP and for XTC mode, I launch my MIDI software. Couldn't be easier!

So back to my original question:

Has the MIDI mapping feature changed in 5.0 or is it the same as in 4.x?

Peace \/
chisel316

[garyb]

for the user, it's the same. the whole program has been rewritten, so it's not clear what's under the hood. you'll have to ask S/C.

[at0m]

Hoh, Chisel, that's another problem indeed. Been long time since I used mapping presets, I assign controllers one by one as I need them. But I remember that bug/issue, where parameters behind knobs were changed without moving the knob when loading mapping presets. I used to work around that using 2 presets that had each parameter different relative to each other: that quickly made sure all knobs and values corresponded.

I'm not on my Scope machine here, but now that I understand what you're talking about, I will check v5's behavior at the next opportunity!

[Mr Arkadin]

Hey Chisel, i have an X-Station. If you post you map i'll give it a go in Scope 5.

To be honest i got this X-Station to map things like Minimax, Oddity etc. and even the GForce templates that come with it don't work on the VSTis properly. Some parameters behave oddly and i find them hard to map, like waveform selection. Anything with those stepped knobs just does not work properly, and this is VSTi as well as Scope devices, so it seems to be the X-Station. i think the software and documentation could be far simpler: i'm not a dummy but this has never really worked out for me.

[manybro]

I'd be interested to know what becomes of this, as coincidentally I have an x-station keyboard but would also like to know how a Bitstream 3x maps to Scope devices as at0m has mentioned mackie mode and I don't know the difference between 7bit and 14bit commands

[at0m]

I'm talking about having the loaded patch sound wrong when the MIDI mapping preset is first loaded. It's as if loading a mapping preset changes the parameters of the synth. This happens regardless of whether I'm in Scope or XTC mode.

Hey Chisel, it hasn't changed: when I loaded a simple Minimax MIDI preset, filter env and reso controls jumped off: clicking it then scrolling up&down once obviously resets the actual value in the device to the knob/UI value.

I'd be interested to know what becomes of this, as coincidentally I have an x-station keyboard but would also like to know how a Bitstream 3x maps to Scope devices as at0m has mentioned mackie mode and I don't know the difference between 7bit and 14bit commands

manybro: good news for you, the Bitstream 3x supports Mackie Mode. That's plug and play MIDI remote for your sequencer, or almost: read the docs on how to set it up. Mind you, the Bistream will not send out CC# but NRPN/RPN instead, when in Mackie Mode. Cos that's how Mackie Mode works to achieve the 14bit: it combines 2 7bit signals. That's much smoother native/sequencer control, which can be used in XTC mode, as the devices are controlled by the VST host, but not in Scope: Scope uses 7bit Control Changes.

[Chisel]

Hey Chisel, it hasn't changed: when I loaded a simple Minimax MIDI preset, filter env and reso controls jumped off: clicking it then scrolling up&down once obviously resets the actual value in the device to the knob/UI value.

Hey, at0m. Thanks for taking the time to check this out. So I guess this buggy code was copied and pasted during the complete rewrite. Your work-around of using two presets sounds interesting. Can you explain this in a bit more detail. I spent a lot of time setting up the MiniMax & Pro12 templates in my X-Station. It would be great to actually use them.

I attached my X-Station templates for MiniMax, Pro-12, and B-2003 plus my corresponding Scope presets including all patches and MIDI mappings for UC-33 as a bonus!

Peace \/
chisel316

[at0m]

Hey, at0m. [...] Can you explain this in a bit more detail. I spent a lot of time setting up the MiniMax & Pro12 templates in my X-Station. It would be great to actually use them.

Chisel, here's how I make the initialising/resetting/whatever presets: Load any preset. Change each parameter so all user settings for the device are different, then save new preset.

These two presets now have nothing in common, and switching between them force-updates each control: ADSR, filter or osc settings, every parameter will be updated. The issue with cycling random presets from the list, is that often default settings (attack, sustain,..) do not change in all presets, then are not updated somehow when the other preset is loaded, thus the actual parameter may still have a different value from the one on the UI.

When you're happy with that preset switching procedure, save the preset list to disk.

If you want to switch midi remote presets live, for example because your controller doesn't have enough knobs or the DSP mixer has 3242 parameters, you have to make sure your remote control device can easily execute the preset switch. If the device is directly influencing the mix, like a mixer, switching presets live becomes most cubersome.

But in most situations, I don't see the point of switching the presets or loading the remote presets: you load the MIDI preset using the mouse, with your monitor on (hey, you're working in Scope, setting up a project). Then using the mouse you quickly cycle through both the presets from above. You save the project, and any consecutive time the project is loaded, the CC# will be assigned already, as saved with the project -untill you delete the device. And unless you load a new device, you don't need to worry again, and you can leave the monitor off. You can save a startup project with dozens of synths on different channels, just turn on the pc, amp and keyboard and start jamming without desktops gazing at you.

[Chisel]

Fantastic! Thanks for the detailed explanation, at0m. I'll definitely give this a shot.

Peace \/
chisel316
http://www.soundclick.com/chisel316

[Mr Arkadin]

Hey Chisel, it hasn't changed: when I loaded a simple Minimax MIDI preset, filter env and reso controls jumped off: clicking it then scrolling up&down once obviously resets the actual value in the device to the knob/UI value.

Hey, at0m. Thanks for taking the time to check this out. So I guess this buggy code was copied and pasted during the complete rewrite. Your work-around of using two presets sounds interesting. Can you explain this in a bit more detail. I spent a lot of time setting up the MiniMax & Pro12 templates in my X-Station. It would be great to actually use them.

I attached my X-Station templates for MiniMax, Pro-12, and B-2003 plus my corresponding Scope presets including all patches and MIDI mappings for UC-33 as a bonus!

Peace \/
chisel316

OK i have tried these - better maps than i achieved (i may have to ask how you did it, or reverse engineer them myself). Anyway Some odd things happened. B-2003 and Pro-12 gave errors (this is in loading the template using the X-Station's own editor), but seemed to transfer to the X-Station OK.

i have only tried Minimax so far. What problems do you have? For me the parameters jump to the current physical position on the x-Station, rather than from the GUI position. Is this an X-Station thing? Also for some reason some knobs appear twice, so Env Depth in Osc1 also adjusts Range (as well as the Semitone button adusting range). Not sure if that's what you intended.

i can test certain things out in the Scope window if you want, but i don't use XTC so can't help on that front.

[Chisel]

I just setup a new mapping for the Nocturn. I used the default Nocturn mapping which just assigns each control to a different CC and learned all the controls on the Minimax. Besides the preset bug mentioned above (which I now have a workaround for thanks to at0m!) it seems to be working fine. So for those who don't know, the Nocturn can either be used in Automap mode - where it receives all of the parameters from the VST (used for XTC mode only) which can then be assigned to any of the Nocturn's controls or MIDI mapped mode - where it behaves the same as any other MIDI controller. I'm beginning to think that the issue I was having with the X-Station was because I didn't start with a good template. I need to find or program a template that assigns all the controls on the X-Station to different CCs. I forget which template I started with before I learned all the CCs in Minimax, but obviously there were some overlaps. I'll see if I can do this tonight and then send out a new template/preset. It's funny how sometimes it takes getting a new device to figure out how to use an older one.

Update: After using the Nocturn with Automap + XTC, I can't go back to MIDI mapping with the X-Station. I'm spoiled now.

Peace \/
chisel316

[Tau]

+1 on the Nocturn.

I don't use XTC mode, but it doesn't seem to be a problem with this. Automap is wonderful, and the controller works really well and is quickly configurable. Besides, like Chisel said, using it in MIDI mode allows for controlling Scope synths and FX.

The speed dial is not usable in Scope, as the stepping is way too wide. But you can do almost the same with the scroll wheel on the mouse- since you have to point anyway, just click and scroll


T

[Chisel]

After a bit of tweaking, I've come up with a Nocturn automap for Minimax. I have the layout memorized to the point that I can control the synth without looking at the monitor. Here's the layout I use:

[Tau]

Good Preset! I made a similar one to try out, and it's pretty neat.

I figure this is for the XTC plug-in? It's just that your values seem to go from 0-1, while mine go from 0-127. I am using standard MIDI, so I can control it directly inside scope. But it works well, quite smooth for MIDI.

Thanks for sharing it! I'm still learning Automap, and I am simply amazed at how simple and quick it is to just control a plugin. I just loaded an Automapped vst EQ on Wavelab, and instantly I'm turning knobs and dialing frequencies and Qs with my hands. No manual mapping, no guessing... Automap Pro should be nice too, but this is realy cool as it is!

Cheers,

T