scope XTC mode and ssl pcie?

[the19thbear]

Hi!
i just might buy the ssl pcie card and use it with my scope cards in xtc mode

Have any of you had any issues at all with the ssl card?
what about latency in ssl v2? ( i suspect i wont be able to use v3)
im using reaper by the way.

and i have:
Motherboard:
Asus M3N72-D
cpu:
AMD athlon 64x2 dual core processor.

so that means that i wont be able to run v3??

thanks alot!

[Warp69]

so that means that i wont be able to run v3??

You're probably able to run it, but I won't recommend it on you current setup. You should stick to 2.59 or upgrade the computer.

An upgrade is always a very good thing to do.

[firubbi]

scope and duende pcie studio pack works nice here but not in xtc mode as im on stupid sonar..(maybe i'll to for cubase 5 soon) but stay with 2.59 which runs all plugs from the card. i dont understand why ssl (with a big name) go for cpu processing!!!

[the19thbear]

xtc mode doesnt work because of sonar or because of ssl pcie?

[nightscope]

Hi!
i just might buy the ssl pcie card and use it with my scope cards in xtc mode

Have any of you had any issues at all with the ssl card?
what about latency in ssl v2? ( i suspect i wont be able to use v3)
im using reaper by the way.

and i have:
Motherboard:
Asus M3N72-D
cpu:
AMD athlon 64x2 dual core processor.

so that means that i wont be able to run v3??

thanks alot!

Hail, All Hail, Bear Of The 19th,

I picked up a PCIe a coupla months ago to run in Samplitude. Normal, not in XTC mode. Mainly to get an SSL option with quick, easy, integrated controller support that Scopeland cannot provide at present. I didn't even consider the firewire option which has been a rocky road for SSL. PCIe still was a bit of a gamble to use with Samplitude as I had heard it had certain issues that host; but it was cheap so I figured live a little. Samplitude and Reaper are not officially supported by SSL for Duende, by the way. Using v2.5.2, at first, was very stable. I did not go beyond v2.5.2 as I was aware of an issue with Samplitude with Duende forgetting parameter settings and I only wanted the strip and buss comp anyway. 32 channels of strip/buss comps gave hardly any noticable CPU hit. All good., all worked fine. After installing v3 Duende ate over 50% of my Intel E6600 Dual Core with 32 channel strips inserted. It also started to forget parameter settings previously saved within projects. Reaper users have reported this as well. I'm not sure if this problem is just caused by v2 settings being unable to be reliably reopened by v3 as I didn't stick around in v3 to find out. v3 may well recall settings correctly but not if they originated from v2. So, back to v2 we go. All seemed OK but I did have one issue crop up where all the Duende plugins decided they were demos again and timed out. Reboot fixed this. It's cropped up once more in a month or so and seems a very rare occurance. SSL says it's a well known bug. Not well known enough to fix it apparently. Still, only a very minor irritation, no showstopper by any means.

If you run v3 it will probably consume a lot of your present CPU. v2 won't. If you run v2 you can only run 32 mono/16 stereo instances rather than the 64/128 channel options in v3. I have yet to need more than v2 amounts of instances even on largish projects having UAD and Scope as well beavering away. v2 will not run Warp's X-Verb which is the absolute dog's as far as software verbs go. It is hardware in software. The only reason for me to use v3 would be to deploy X-Verb or get some more channels. So, it's all a bit of a trade off for me. I can't be bothered to get a new CPU and mobo to run v3 for this DSP card when I'm only using 25% of my CPU now anyway on projects under normal circumstances.

Seriously good suite of plugins. X-Comp and X-EQ are Algorithmix at about 1/3 price. A bit special.

ns

PS I know nothing about XTC and Duende. But I would have thought that any VST's, which is all SSL's are, should work fine. I mean SSL plugs aren't running in XTC mode are they?

[nightscope]

i dont understand why ssl (with a big name) go for cpu processing!!!

To run X-Verb. It's the only one out of the bunch that needs help from off the DSP card. SSL also say that it's technically impossible to activate more than 32 channels with v2 software. I don't actually think that's true. The whole v3 thing is to get Duende users onto v3 which means SSL can sell them more big hungry plugins and allow them to abandon Duende's status as a DSP only platform. Which is fair enough as they got to eat too. I just think they should fix all remaining issues for v2 users who want to use Duende away from the CPU. v2 hasn't been fixed in about a year. Doesn't affect me much but some folks are slightly pissed off.

ns

[firubbi]

xtc mode doesnt work because of sonar or because of ssl pcie?

its sonar. there is a noise like clock problem when sonar is slave to spdif(maybe adat also)
did you try on sonar?

[Wired]

even tho i own it, ....u don't need it if you have scope, ....the drumstrip plug has a killer low frequency harmonics feature that makes a kick sound killer, which u cannot duplicate with psy q or anything else in scope, but everything else u almost can, except the ssl sound

[the19thbear]

First of all: Thanks for all the replies!

What i dont like about scope is that it just doesnt really work in xtc mode.. it works, but i get pci overflow errors/no more stdm connections from board 0 to board 2 - errors... (nothing wrong with the cards, but the PCI system is just to slow and obsolete..)

Some plugins simply dont work in xtc mode ( even if you do all the xtc tricks in the world).
Its very unstable.
I can only use one core for reaper if i run xtc mode, otherwise reaper crashes etc etc..

-i'm not blaming SC for this, as they actually dont support XTC mode right now.
I just need XTC mode thats all.
I'm starting to actually make money from mixing/recording now, and I am getting kind of discouraged about SC - I know they are working! but their PR work is just not good enough to survive in this business IMO And they really have some strong competion from UAD/powercore/ssl IMO.

I know! you will say that scope is so much more than uad/poco etc, and it is! but no one knows about it! thats why i really fear for the survival of SC.

ssl and UA has been in the business a LOOOOOOOOONG time, and i dont fear for their future:)

I dont want my investments to go down the drain in a year or 2, So i have thought of selling some of my cards, and only keeping 1x6 dsp card for routing/monitor mix and some reverbs/other fx and getting another card for use in "xtc" mode. - SSL/UAD/powercore.

If SC turns out to be a huge succes, i will jump aboard 9999% again, since i really like scope in general.

I can get lots of "spicy" effects from scope, so i dont think UAD is for me, but i could use a good dsp workhorse (comps/eqs)
thats why i think ssl PCIE is for me.

ABOUT SSL PCIE:
are you saying that with v3 you can only load stuff on the CPU with version 3??
I dont want to "lock" myself into some old non updated software with v2, but i dont want to buy a dsp card and then not use the dsps!
Or can you (with v3) fill up your dsps (32 channels) and if you use more instances it will load on the cpu instead?


thanks again!

[Mr Arkadin]

I dont want my investments to go down the drain in a year or 2

Well unless S|C have special keys that self-destruct all cards if they go out of business, why would it go down the drain?

[the19thbear]

ok. could, not will
im talking about the company, not the software.
- guess that when i have the money i will buy the pcie from thomann, demo it with v3/v2 and if it doesnt work, send it back
DOH! just read on gearslutz that ssl will not do any bug updates on v2!!! can you confirm this nightscope??
i guess my slow pc will never use v3..

thanks!

[nightscope]

are you saying that with v3 you can only load stuff on the CPU with version 3??

v2 loads onto the DSP with just a tiny gnats' on the CPU, a blip. v3 "shares" duties between CPU & DSP's. The latest v3.1 has apparently "optimized" this sharing but the CPU hit is still considerable. Other users report this with faster CPU's than mine, I haven't tried it. v3.1 apparently takes deselected functions on plug instances off the CPU/DSP's. SSL haven't posted any performance figures for v3 like UAD do for their offerings.

I dont want to "lock" myself into some old non updated software with v2, but I don't want to buy a dsp card and then not use the dsps!

Well, lots of folks don't want to "lock" themselves into good ol' Scope's outdated system either. So they get to use good ol' VSTi's instead if they work with synths in the box. SSL PCIe is cheap. To run 32 channels of strip/buss comp equivalent, the 4K stuff, on UAD2 would require a Quad at a about a grand.

Or can you (with v3) fill up your dsps (32 channels) and if you use more instances it will load on the cpu instead?

No. v2 is 32 mono instances, virtually DSP only. v3 is a free for all.

ns

[nightscope]

DOH! just read on gearslutz that ssl will not do any bug updates on v2!!! can you confirm this nightscope??!

That was probably just someone trying to goad SSL to commit to saying they would fix the few outstanding issues with v2. Didn't work!!

Actually, v2.5.2 works almost perfectly for me within the Sampledude. It's only freaked out twice in earnest and that was some time ago. So I think the coast is clear. Check Reaper forum, for Reaperside viewpoint.

Thing is, SSL have had such a nightmare with FW folk's are very wary of anything they do. Also they've only been doing plugs for a very short time compared with the other players. Digital desks, yes, plugs, no.

In a perfect world you buy a product plug it in and it works, period. That's what folks pay for and that's what they should get. But, as we know, the world ain't perfect. SSL blew it with Duende FW and the PR has been bad. Just as TC blew it with FW and Konnekt series. And M-Audio with Profire and FW to a lesser extent. SSL had the sense to go PCIe but are suffering the fallout from the FW fiasco. Duende PCie hardware is good and plugs are very good if you need that sort of thing. Drivers are stable, in the main, in v2. v3 is the future wherein lay big whopper CPU's.

Maybe, find an SSL dealer/shop, ask them if you can install Roper on their box to demo the PCIe just to make sure.

Actually, I could try it out in Reaper if you want, to see what happens. I bet it works OK.

Why didn't I think of that.

ns

[dawman]

It seems like the trend towards DSP/CPU combos is becoming more popular.
Merging Technologies Mass Core uses a Mykerinos DSP card for I/O's, and one seperate Core of a Quad Core CPU for it's mixing of 48 DXD (352.8 kHz) channels.
This is an excellent idea for ITB.
I would love to try DXD recording in this way, and be able to use the XITE-1 as a giant Solaris/QWave/Modular synth, or a super high quality effects matrix @ 96k.
Does the SSL software isolate CPU juice in a similar method, or does it draw from all 4 cores?

[nightscope]

Does the SSL software isolate CPU juice in a similar method, or does it draw from all 4 cores?

4? 2, if you don't mind. It does the lot.

Do PC's have 8 cores yet? What's the biggest baddest CPU for PC's we got? Where we up to with this stuff?

ns

[Warp69]

Do PC's have 8 cores yet? What's the biggest baddest CPU for PC's we got? Where we up to with this stuff

Since Im using Mac Pro (incl. bootcamp) - yes, I have 8 cores (and 8 threads) for some time now (2 years). Newer version uses Nehalem and have 8 cores, but 16 threads because of ht.

Later this year Intel will release i9 with 6 cores per cpu - this would give Mac Pro and any other 2 socket motherboards 12 cores with 24 threads.

I really believe that native/Larrabee/Fusion is the future and most audio companies will be native in 2-3 years time (UA has to recoup their investment in the new platform) - but we have a realtime environment with Scope! Yes, but so do I on my Mac Pro - Quote from from another thread :

I just measured the roundtrips for Pulsar 2 (from the DSP environment - no latency introduced by the OS or buffer size).

44.1KHz roundtrip (in one direction) for SP-DIF = 4 samples = 0.09ms
44.1KHz total roundtrip (both direction) for SP-DIF = 8 samples = 0.18ms

The total roundtrip for the analogue connection is 66 samples - normally its 1/3 for the output and 2/3 for the input, so that will give us :

44.1KHz roundtrip for analogue output = 22 samples = 0.50ms
44.1KHz roundtrip for analogue input = 44 samples = 1.00ms
44.1KHz total roundtrip for analogue = 66 samples = 1.50ms

Let us do the same for the best audio interfaces - Apogee Symphony and Lynx Studio AES16e. They run without any problems at 32 sample buffers on my Mac Pro.

44.1KHz roundtrip (in one direction) for AES/Apogee = 32 + 2 samples = 0.77ms
44.1KHz total roundtrip (both direction) for AES/Apogee = 32 + 32 + 4 samples = 1.54ms

My AD/DA converter have 15 sample latency for the input and 8 sample latency for output - this give us :

44.1KHz roundtrip for analogue output (AES/Apogee -> D/A) = 32 + 2 + 8 samples = 0.95ms
44.1KHz roundtrip for analogue input (A/D -> AES/Apogee) = 32 + 2 + 15 samples = 1.11ms
44.1KHz total roundtrip for analogue (AES/Apogee -> D/A -> A/D -> AES/Apogee) = 32 + 2 + 8 + 32 + 2 + 15 samples = 2.06ms

The performance of my Logic setup is very close to the performance of the DSP environment of the Pulsar 2 - the next step for audio interfaces is 16 sample buffers in OSX.

[Warp69]

Does the SSL software isolate CPU juice in a similar method, or does it draw from all 4 cores?

Thats handle by the host and not the Duende, UAD, etc.

[Warp69]

v2 loads onto the DSP with just a tiny gnats' on the CPU, a blip. v3 "shares" duties between CPU & DSP's. The latest v3.1 has apparently "optimized" this sharing but the CPU hit is still considerable. Other users report this with faster CPU's than mine, I haven't tried it. v3.1 apparently takes deselected functions on plug instances off the CPU/DSP's. SSL haven't posted any performance figures for v3 like UAD do for their offerings.

The plugins will be optimized further in future releases.

Now I can load 80 slots out of 128 and use around 12-13% of the cpu with 32 sample buffer (that's on my Mac Pro 2.8GHz 8 Core)

[nightscope]

I really believe that native/Larrabee/Fusion is the future

Warp69, "The Man From Larrabee".

Cheers, Warp. I haven't thought about upgrading for about three years. I am loathe to get a new CPU & mobo as a) I don't need one and b) I don't need one. Except for the extra Duende channels which I will do without for the present.

Problem with these here Scope PCI's is they seem to go on forever and if & when they peg out PCI slots will be nowhere to be seen.

Now I can load 80 slots out of 128 and use around 12-13% of the cpu with 32 sample buffer (that's on my Mac Pro 2.8GHz 8 Core)

Sounds good. So what happens to the other unused 48 slots on the card in that situation. Why can't they be used?

ns

[Warp69]

Sounds good. So what happens to the other unused 48 slots on the card in that situation. Why can't they be used?

Heheh - they can be used, but that project "only" needed 80 slots of SSL sound