Condenser mic single diaphram / dual diaphram

[fraz]

Hi,

I'm looking to get a condenser mic to add to a dynamic I already have for use with my Scope cards. I hope you don't mind me posting this here as it isn't strictly Creamware talk... ...but it is for use with Creamware.... .....

I just need a little advice / further knowledge....I'm looking to get a Behringer condensder B1 or B2 Pro - As I'm a home user (enthusiastic though) I don't have all the technical knowledge etc....(yet).....The two mics B1 is a single diaphram condenser and the B2 is a dual diaphram condenser.....it's all very sad...... ...I don't know the difference between the two so please tech guys chip in when your ready......

I figure a Behringer mic will be good because they are good at making low-ish cost products with good performance - Also phantom power is needed (that I do know) some of the new mics have built in audio interfaces which may not be able to be used inside scope project (is this correct?)

Really at this stage it's the dual / single diaphram thing that is the issue - If there are any other good mics (at reasonable prices) to look at let me know the specs and I'll look them up....

Thanks in advance...............

[Shroomz~>]

Sorry I can't be of more help (I'm not a mic guru), but my advise is to post this same question on the Gearslutz 'low end theory' forum. There's A LOT of mic experts over there (maybe 1000's) in comparison to here, where you're looking at a few dozen people that might be willing/able to genuinely help from experience.

[garyb]

the behringer is ok, not really great. for a crappy mic, i would suggest going right to the manufacturer and getting an ADK or Marshall brand mic. all have the same capsule....an Audio Technica AT2020 would also be a little better. all are useable, however. i'd consider spending some real money on the mic pre, if you want the best results. an FMR RNP is pretty high end for about $500 for two channels and a pair of HiZ(instrument) inputs.

the single diaphram will only give one pickup polar pattern, cardiod(it's unidirectional). the dual diaphram is virtually identical, but it will also do omnidirectional and figure 8(sensitive at front and back, but not the sides).

[the19thbear]

Dual diaprham means two capsules in one "head". With a single capsule, you can only get one pattern, with a dual diaprahm you can have other patterns ( cardiod, figure 8 and omni)
A pattern is the way the mic "hears" the room around it.
Its a little hard to explain without drawings, but im sure your can google it!:)
i have the behringer b1, and its ok... but its not a mic you can use as your main mic. ( that is, on everything)
It has a very brittle weird sounding top, that doesnt sound too good.
On one or 2 tracks it can be ok, but on several, the whole mix starts to sound crappy in the top end..
It actually works well for lead vocals ( at least for my vocal:)

There is the avatone mics. They make single diaphram mics that are ok! i have one of those(ck6), and they are pretty cheap!
Dont go for the CK1 though... it has exchangable capsules, but the omni figure capsule is NOT omni at all.
They way to measure the quality of an omni mic, is to hear if it pickups hi freq material coming from every direction. It doesnt
You have to go with DPA omni mics for that.. they are amazing!

[fraz]

Thanks Gary,

It's all starting to make more sense..........ideally a mixture of everyting would be great....... ......Currently have a Behringer ADA8000 mic pre- Shure SM57 - or 58.....and looking to get a condenser. I'm in the early stages of home studio etc...in real terms.....but am getting it all together gradually.....may get a compressor as mentioned months ago probaby......My home setup isn't well suited to good acoustics et .....so at some stage may I may add a break-downable-recording solution that could act as a live room (in the house) for vocals - guitar etc....that can be put away when not in use............and to start with it may be best to get a Behringer mic at £110 or SE Electronics 2200A £195 and find my way with it all and see what results I can get with average kit if you like....I'll look into the names you've suggested......one thing that may happen is that vocals/instruments may be recorded in another studio elsewhere but I will do my best to learn all I can here at home.....if I was doing more at home on Scope then I would naturally look to buy good mic-pre , mics, etc....

Would it be better to get the cheapest "best" mic eg.behringer b1 £70 or M-Audio Nova £65 and then work up when I get more serious?

Edit: ADK do one for £150
B1 Pro £110
Rhodes NT-1A (something like that) what are these like?
Samson?
SE Electronics 2200A ? £195 (non USB)

[the19thbear]

apparently you wrote stuff while i was still writing
the more you save money on audio gear, the more you have to spend.. its sad, but thats the way it is.
If you start out with a SUPER soudning mic, and a SUPER sounding mic preamp, you will spend a 10th of the time, eq'ing the tracks..
Of course thats not possible for most people (including me!!)
If you start out with the cheapest gear, you will spend alot of money/time on eq'ing/comping things till they sound right..
= its expensive to save money on audio gear

[fraz]

So what your sayng is in the long run you will spend more.... - Yes I can see this - The ADA8000 could be proof of this - Some here are keen on the FMR Audio which is a new name to me but it's clear that I should have known about this sooner.... .....as from what people here say it's alot better than the ADA8000 and at this stage it's minimal two channel approach is all I need so yes your right....

[nightscope]

If I had to buy a budget microphone for home project vox, etc, I would get a cardoid only one; especially if I'm tracking in a less than ideal recording environment. Omni & figure 8 will only serve to pick up more uneccessary refections from the room and are mainly used for very specific tasks, not vocals where you usually don't want a lot of the room entering the signal.

Whatever you end up purchasing do try and buy with the option to take it back if it turns out to be a load of gabarge.

ns

[garyb]

i'd go with the ADK or the Rode, personally.

the AT2020 is a great buy as well. at PME we sell those for $100, which is a bargain for a real brand name mic.

[fraz]

Hi,

I've been looking into this further, thanks for your help so far - Large diaphram mics -

AKG C214 £280+ -
Audio Technica 4033 £359-00 - These are both cardiod patterns only
Studio Elecronics se 2200a £195-00 - Is there much difference in these? - The prices speak for themselves - The AKG apparently has a good name but is the Audio Technica head and heels above the others?

[fraz]

the behringer is ok, not really great. for a crappy mic, i would suggest going right to the manufacturer and getting an ADK or Marshall brand mic. all have the same capsule....an Audio Technica AT2020 would also be a little better. all are useable, however. i'd consider spending some real money on the mic pre, if you want the best results. an FMR RNP is pretty high end for about $500 for two channels and a pair of HiZ(instrument) inputs.

the single diaphram will only give one pickup polar pattern, cardiod(it's unidirectional). the dual diaphram is virtually identical, but it will also do omnidirectional and figure 8(sensitive at front and back, but not the sides).

Hi, you mention spending alot on mic pre-amps.....currently have the ADA8000 Behringer which I'll carry on with but if I did change up in the future would the Focusrite Mic Pre be on the "good" list ....£650 I hope the answer is yes.... ....it has ADAT on it or can connect via audio outs....for ADAT though I think it may need an optional card.....

[valis]

Hi,

I've been looking into this further, thanks for your help so far - Large diaphram mics -

AKG C214 £280+ -
Audio Technica 4033 £359-00 - These are both cardiod patterns only
Studio Elecronics se 2200a £195-00 - Is there much difference in these? - The prices speak for themselves - The AKG apparently has a good name but is the Audio Technica head and heels above the others?

Beware that in the sub-$800 market you're largely looking at disposable gear, so pick something that will at least last a while and be useful. Ie, it's not likely you're going to be able to repair due to the way they make them it so make sure it will hold up.

Quite happy with my AT 4033 here. SE stuff is very competitively priced and worthwhile also. Not sure I'd pick a Behringer/M-audio etc mic, that stuff is built & priced to sell to the masses imo. I happen to have a cheap Sony small condenser mic and a budget LDC (large diaphragm condenser), both bought some years ago. I really should have bought something at least midrange at the time, I use neither for anything above Skype or non-musical tasks, my AT4033 & Shure SM57 beat them both every time (AND are the low end of the scale for 'musical' mics!)

[garyb]

the AT4033 is a REAL mic.

as to focusrite, they really made their name quite a while ago, the newer gear isn't the same and hasn't been for quite some time. aroud here it's the kind of product that people with extra money buy because it's expensive, but not as expensive as the true boutique products, kind of for lawyers with a hobby(focusrite's high-end line is pretty nice, but gimmicky). it's still a better product than the ada8000, but i'm not sure if it's the best way to spend money, that would be your decision. it would certainly be a major step up from the ada8000, which really isn't a BAD product itself(they work quite well and are very cheap, you gotta love that!). personally, i'd start incvesting in premium pres, and then get an A16ultra(the best and most AD/DA for the money, really!) in the future. the behringer is really pretty servicable, if not spectacular. i still reccomend the FMR RNP as a great deal on a no b$ STUDIO mic pre, one that would be at home with much more expensive products. REAL mic pres used by professional engineers on big dollar projects rarely have anything more that a gain control, phase invert switch and maybe a pad(and phantom power, but not always for the older stuff). tricks are for kids. although there are some nice channel strips which certainly have their uses, an alarm should go off when faced with a mic pre that has an eq section. eq was incented for people who couldn't afford to own a plethora of different mics and pres. people try to cover the fact that the pre and mic don't sound that good by eq'ing, which rarely actually works. eq creates phase anomolies and other messes and built-in crossovers leave you with compression that can't be undone. if eq is needed, it's better to do it afterward when you CAN undo it, ditto for compression. just make sure you record in 24bit, to maintain headroom. the less in the signal chain, the better the recording, usually. the trick is to choose pre and mic wisely, or if funds are limited, to get the best quality possible with the money that's there. good gear is never useless.

...or that's the way i was taught....

[ReD_MuZe]

actually i have good experience with the studio projects C1.
el cheapo mike, when new it sounds very good.
it sounds better than all of the rest of studio project's mikes.
it will hold for 3-4 years in good condition.

[Shroomz~>]

If I had to buy a budget microphone for home project vox, etc, I would get a cardoid only one; especially if I'm tracking in a less than ideal recording environment. Omni & figure 8 will only serve to pick up more uneccessary refections from the room and are mainly used for very specific tasks, not vocals where you usually don't want a lot of the room entering the signal.

Whatever you end up purchasing do try and buy with the option to take it back if it turns out to be a load of gabarge.

ns

Sounds like good advice ns.

I'd also add that I wouldn't spend any serious cash on mics or mic pres AT ALL unless you've got some decent acoustic treatment in your studio room & also in the room or booth you plan to record vocals. Also wouldn't be spending any serious cash on mics or mic pres unless you have good quality monitor speakers & a couple of sets of good headphones.

In terms of getting a cheap mic there's loads of options, so do as much research as you can. I only suggested the gearslutz forum, because there's literally 1000's of threads about mics over there, so if you've got the time to do some reading there's tons of great info there from people who've got first hand experience with lots of different types of mic. Lots of guys like Gary you could say. It's nice to read their different experiences and thoughts on different products.

A cheap mic that lots of people seem to be saying is excellent & also good value for money is the CAD M179. I think there's places selling those for about $200.

Btw, If you've already got an SM57 or 58, you can do a lot with that alone + some carefully crafted EQ presets and some other processing. We've got an el cheapo XM8500 here that we bought for handing to idiots that you'd rather not be handing a nicer mic to. Surprisingly, it can sound incredibly good at times with the right processing. It's supported by Antares mic modeler as well & that's quite useful.

[fraz]

Hi folks,

My mic is the Shure SM58 - Double checked this - Last year I got a package deal with Thomann for a Creamware Scope Pro with A16 Ultra, this was the older product. When I got the ADA8000, did this becuase I knew it would get the job done, provide mic pre + line level too but didn't understand enough about all the products, by the looks of it I could have got another A16u and having looked at the FMR Audio RNP this would be enough as I would only take one take at a time and this would connect with the input of the A16u.

The other ADAT here is the Fostex VC8 - 8in - 8 out ADAT - Whats the view here on the quality of this? - Is it above the Behringer ADA8000 in terms of quality of the AD/DA? -

Shroomz has commented on not spending on decent pre-amps and mics unless you have decent acoustic treatments in the room - I have looked at overcoming this by possibly adding soon-ish-as-possible a Studio Electronics reflection filter which looks like it will help a lot, comments please.....and also adding Auralex Max Wall around the speakers / PC (Yamaha MSP5).......This may end up providing a recording thats alot better though I am limited at what I can do as it's an area of a living room thats currently dedicated to DAW. At this stage it's all about learning as much as possible to see what I can do to get as good a result as possible then take it from there afterwards but I'm hoping with some careful thought that decent-ish results can be achieved as far as "audio capture" is concerned.....

On the mic side again...

Audio Technica AT4033 £359 is a good mic......
SE Electronics SE 2200A £195 is worthwhile
AKG C214 £286

From these above what would the difference be from the 4033 and AKG one is £350+ the other is £286.....just comparing these two would would be the views here???

[Shroomz~>]

If you've already got an SM58, you could consider getting an SM57 as well & go for a second hand Joemeek preamp like a VC1 or MQ3, which would be a step up from the preamps on your ADA-8000. You'd get both the 57 & Joemeek pre for less than 200 quid. If you can't get good recordings with a 57, 58 and a little Joemeek preamp, it wouldn't be the mics or mic pre at fault.

[fraz]

Just having a look at the FMR Audio RNP - Really Nice Processor.....penny has dropped.... ....£380 in UK and there is a dealer here....

FMR also have a RNC - Really Nice Compressor.....This is something else I thought I may need as I don't have one yet. When recording would I be ideally looking to compress the signal on the way in? - or try to do it without?

[fraz]

hey Shroomz I liked this quote of yours!

We've got an el cheapo XM8500 here that we bought for handing to idiots that you'd rather not be handing a nicer mic to. Surprisingly, it can sound incredibly good at times with the right processing.

I like this...... ......£16 and it looks like a Clone of Shure SM58 (I'm not saying it is though)

[fraz]

If you've already got an SM58, you could consider getting an SM57 as well & go for a second hand Joemeek preamp like a VC1 or MQ3, which would be a step up from the preamps on your ADA-8000. You'd get both the 57 & Joemeek pre for less than 200 quid. If you can't get good recordings with a 57, 58 and a little Joemeek preamp, it wouldn't be the mics or mic pre at fault.

If I get another pre-amp it would have to be a step up from the Behringer ADA8000 in terms of quality though I don't need 8ins/outs at the moment.....The FMR RNP is apparently very good.....what is the quality of Joe Meek? - Are they still being made?

What is the difference from Shure SM57 to SM58? - Just had a look....uni directional dynamic - SM58 omni directional meaning it may be better at recording in a bad acoustic space because it will pick up less reflections etc..... ....is this correct?