Tangential argument over the market value of an A16

[Joat]

I'm trying to buy something but other forum users do their best to stop me. DELETE THIS!

[deepcode]

I have a A16 Classic for Sale:

http://www.auvito.de/soniccore-creamwar ... tails.html

I also have a Pulsar 1 / 4 DSP classic (gen 1) + SRB 4 DSP (gen 1) for sale.
Software version 4.
( This is the backup system for the big scope pro sell in my own thread here)
Additional Plugins is the Timeworks Collection (4080L, Compressor, EQ, Limiter)

you can make me a offer to: sounds@deepcode-one.com

[Joat]

For the general record: I will post here when this ad becomes irrelevant. Keep the offers coming!

[Joat]

I'll bump this since editing the subject didn't.

[Neutron]

If you cant find one I needed some cheap ADAT i/os just for plugging in kaoss pad and some consumer gear I got 2 fostex VC-8 from ebay really cheap.
or theres always that behringer thing. a16 original had a good sound though. it was 18 bits or something a bit strange if i remember.

[Joat]

Thanks for the tip, Neutron!

I'm keeping this in mind, though I would much prefer a16 since I already got one and would like to keep all the adda conversion consistent. The other option I have considered is AdatXT's. How about the sound quality on those?

[astroman]

the box has 18bit converters, but effectively uses 16 - so you have a pretty reliable least significant bit
it already has vintage status at those who know about it, because of it's tone...
unless the $50 unit shows serious wear (not unlikely with that age) Joat can consider himself extremely lucky for scoring. In Germany they rarely finish below 200.

cheers, Tom

the Adat XT probably features the same (input) converters as the A16 - 18bit of which 16 are written to tape
playback uses 20bit DA converters

[Joat]

My A16 is flawless. Not a scratch and works perfectly. I also know it's history from the beginning and it has most of its life still ahead of it. Probably used under 200 hours since new. These things are ten years old for crying out loud, and the design is far from perfect. Nowadays 24 bits is the norm.

If these truly go for 200€, I'd be happy to sell mine. Make me an offer. I would use the money to buy Adats.

I need the i/o, not the "vintage status".

Sorry if I sound pissed, but I see this kind of "vintage status" as a common and unnecessary way to try to artificially boost the value of old junk. A16 mk1 has a value, but for me it is not 200€. And for some odd reason you can see the few months ago advertised a16's that are on sale for that much money still on sale. One can ask whatever one wishes, but the buyers are the ones who decide.

My a16 can be had for 200€ + expences. Or I trade it for 4 adat XT:s+brc. And pay up to 100€ of compensation. I don't give a flying chicken about the "vintage status". If there is someone who does, buy my a16.

Peace out,

[astroman]

... Sorry if I sound pissed, but I see this kind of "vintage status" as a common and unnecessary way to try to artificially boost the value of old junk. A16 mk1 has a value, but for me it is not 200€. ...

agreed, the 'boost' aspect is by far the most common (ab)use of the word 'vintage'
so you are absolutely right in probably 95% of the sales offers...

but that still leaves a tiny rest of instruments and gear that truely deserve the label in it's original meaning to describe a specially treated or highly selected product. The so-called vintage tone of (some!) old Fender basses isn't a myth, but can be clearly heard - it takes a sh*tload of effort to squeeze something similiar out of recent products. The funny thing is if you pick the right parts, you can achieve it almost from driftwood...
(I mention this just to make clear that I'm not about flair or excusivity, but only the audible result)

I've recently aquired a piece of mid-60s trash (as you'd probably call it, and it was dead cheap) as preamp for my bass - and I've challenged it really hard under dozens of conditions in A/B tests, even as an alternate input in rather expensive amps.
The thingy always scored like a miracle - but why do I tell you ?
Simply because there is more about sound than numbers, aka frequency response and noise level...

Of course it's 24bit etc today, but actually something did NOT change over the last decades...
you still pay for what you get - or in other words: you exactly get what you pay
the preamp I told you about would cost a 4 figure Euro amount today if someone were to re-manufacture it.
It is handcrafted with selected parts and it probably was equivalent a month salary when brandnew.

The old A16 is a (partly) similiar piece of gear - way too expensive to be made today. The one I have even looks hand-tuned inside regarding certain resistor values (doesn't seem a repair).
You don't need to like it (and I'm far from convincing you to keep yours).
It may not fit all and every application... but for what it does good you might need to look for some fairly expensive stuff to replace it.
Regardless what number of bits is printed in the spec sheet...

That's why I applied the 'vintage' reputation label to it, with a smiley of course

cheers, Tom

[wayne]

You scored for <50 euro! Why would that mean the a16 is worth less?

I think it sounds better than any adat machine converters, but do your thing.

[Joat]

I said I would pay up to 100€ for a good unit. It may be old, it may have the best sound ever in 16bit converter league. It may have been made entirely by hand and with best components available at the time.

All irrelevant.

It is still 16 bit converter in a world where 24 bit is a standard. And it's design is far from perfect. It has a built in fan, which speaks volumes about the heating issues they were unable to solve back then. Those fans fail, and even if they work, they gather dust inside the unit which in turn leads to cooling not functioning perfectly. Its hard to tell what kind of torture a ten year old unit has gone through. A mixing console, when 10 years old might be in serious need of recapping. Same with these. The analog side might need a complete overhaul etc.

It might be the best 16 bit converter out there. But the market certainly isn't blooming. I have a use for it, but I need it to mix with a console. And I don't do anything commercial with it. I just like to have at home a studio I have always dreamed of. And to me it's about 24 channels from computer to console. Not about bits.

A good sound is certainly appreciated. But if I would be mainly concerned about that, I'd spend my money on 24 bit. It would be an audible difference instead of arguable.

If someone here has an old a16 he wants to be sold to a good home, I'm still intrested. But I refuse to pay for the artificial 'vintage status' that has no real justification.

[astroman]

Joat, your arguments are your arguments and certainly accepted as such.
In fact I share some of them regarding the stress the unit (usually) has gone through, mostly due to heat dissipation of the misplaced power regulation inside.
I'd never recommend a 'normal' A16 to anyone unfamiliar with a soldering iron, even though I really like the way it does the conversion job.
If your box had just 200 hours of duty, I'd gladly take it for 200 Euro - unfortunately I just happened to spend 1k on gear last week...

Since I've given away my original PSU sometime ago I cannot guarantee a 100% identical performance, but otherwise my A16 runs perfectly with an original IBM notebook supply from a Thinkpad A22p, getting only handwarm without the fan - it's a plug and play replacement, usually 25 Euro on eBay. If you shut the A16 off, the IBM PSU will shut itself off internally, too - very convenient and not the only difference to cheapo switching powersupplies. Most of those do NOT work with the A16 at all.

cheers, Tom
I possibly may return to your offer when funds recuperate...

ps: well, I didn't want to mention it, but as Fluxpod points to eBay anyway...
today an A16 finished 190, with one of the Adat-Outs damaged(!) and an obscure story about it

[Fluxpod]

There is one on e-bay germany.
http://cgi.ebay.de/Creamware-A16-Analog ... 240%3A1318

5days left and already 100 bucks.
I doubt you get one for 100 but good luck.Btw...the digi 192 interfaces have a fan aswell.
And 16 or 24 bit wont make such a big difference.
All the best with your search.
If you do not find one then look at the Behringer ada8000.You need 2 but they go for very very bargain prices and they are good units.

[Joat]

Since my thread is converting to a debate about the streetprices and the justification of them, I think I need to rephrase myself yet again.

I still am willing to buy one with the terms stated above. But if there's actually a market for these 'vintage status' converters that justify the price of 200 euros and above, I am over my head here.

Therefore I will also take the trade on mine. Get me four adats, and brc and I give you my very good quality and well kept a16. I pay the shipping of a16 and you pay the shipping of the adat lot. I will also pay up to 100€ compensation if all the adats and brc are in good working condition. Adats need to be of the same model. So no blackfaces and xt20's combined. They can be used and dirty, but need to work.

As said a few times before, I need the i/o. I can trade 'The Sound' for it. And use the budget I have reserved on this. Go on, dig your closets! Trade your unused adats for a piece of That Classic Vintage Creamware Sound!

And DON'T start on used adat value. I know about that. There is as many prices there is deals made. If you got adats you need to get rid of and you want the a16, this trade saves you the trouble of selling them and hunting the a16. A value in itself.

[Shroomz~>]

If you want top quality used gear for peanuts there's always ebay. In fairness to the other posters here, I doubt that you'll get an A16 on PlanetZ for 50-100 dollars unless it needs repaired, since that's way below market value. 8ch RCA<>Adat Fostex boxes sell for more than that.

cheers,
Mark

[Joat]

I doubt that you'll get an A16 on PlanetZ for 50-100 dollars unless it needs repaired,

If I don't advertise I'm in need of one, I will definitely not. But that's why I do.

I bought my second Pulsar mk1 from here. The negotiated price was 50€ including international shipping. It's not so far off from what I paid from my fist pulsar.

It is increasingly difficult to get any kind of deal when all of you come here to tell me and everyone else reading this how wrong I am with this. If you hate to see them go that cheaply, start your own thread and offer to buy them with 'proper' prices. How is it bad if I succeed in getting my studio together with money I can spend on it?

[Shroomz~>]

No offense meant. I just think that 50euro is what you'd expect to pay for a couple of good cables, not a 16ch AD/DA Creamware converter.

Mark

[Joat]

True. And 50€ is what you pay for a decent meal, not a price of 4 shark dsp card that was over tousand euros new back at 1998.
And 4€ is what you pay for a pack of cigarettes. And WAY too much to pay for a Dyaxis system that was over 10000 euros new back at the dawn of man.

Offence taken, I have to admit. But I can see the humour of it too. =)

[astroman]

... It is increasingly difficult to get any kind of deal when all of you come here to tell me and everyone else reading this how wrong I am with this. If you hate to see them go that cheaply, start your own thread and offer to buy them with 'proper' prices. ...

well, you bumbed your own thread after 4 months without response
I only made 1 statement that the A16 has a real reputation for it's 'sound' with some people (like the Blackface Adat) and not some fake status.
Imho your original suggestion was so far beyond reality, there was few to spoil anyway.

and yes, one could even charge to dispose analogue consoles from broadcast studios in the beginning of the so called 'digital era', in particular the tube based stuff...

cheers, Tom

[garyb]

and yes, one could even charge to dispose analogue consoles from broadcast studios in the beginning of the so called 'digital era', in particular the tube based stuff...

cheers, Tom

sooooo true!

sorry Joat, not personal, just funny because it's true...big business, old analog consoles and their input stages....

btw-i have an A8 if you want to spend that $100 and shipping in case no one has an A16 for you...