Mackie Control support ?

[wolf]

As my forthcoming mixer will support (limited) multi midi channel assignments (beside some other yet unseen stuff), it might also be possible to include Mackie Control support. The current implementation already includes volume, pan or aux sends to be controled by the MC volume faders.
However making it work natively would need some serious rework and investigation (adding relative ctrl support and such).
So my question to hopefully forthcoming customers is following:
Would you pay an extra fee to have MC support added ?
Wouldn't you pay an extra fee (without MC support) ?
Would you buy the mixer anyway ?

I've made a poll about this to get an impression if this is wanted by a larger number or if my time is wasted by implementing this

Another question: What parameters do you really need to be supported ?
Currently these are implemented :
mute
solo
volume
pan
aux on/off 1-4
aux level 1-4

Do you need more or other parameters ?
Keep in mind that every control adds 16 times (=16 channels) ressource consumption.

kind regards
Wolfgang

[sbp]

Is Mackie Control support the same as Mackie BabyHUI support?

Sean

[wolf]

No, the HUI protocol is quite different. But a lot control surfaces support MackieControl protocol (i.e. the Behringer stuff as I learned today). Probably the MackieBaby supports the MackieControl protocol as well (might be the case as both is Mackie) ? I'll ask my control surface expert.

[Janni]

MC would be cool!!!

Channel selection and following grafix would make the mixer very handy...
I will buy it!
Cheers,
Jan

[manfriday]

unless it was a fantastic super-duper mega mixer that far surpassed the current STM mixers I would have a hard time buying it.
However, if it offered the same or better functionality than the STM mixers PLUS strong mackie support & was priced reasonably, I'd be first in line with my credit card.

[wolf]

Channel selection and following grafix would make the mixer very handy...

mmh, that wouldn't make much sense for scope, since you don't use it within a sequencer, where the corresponding tracks are selected. The important stuff is shown on one surface in my mixer anyway.
But perhaps I'm missing the point ... what do you mean with following graphics ?

However, if it offered the same or better functionality than the STM mixers

Similar but with more functions was the primary goal, otherwise I wouldn't have started this now far over two years ongoing project. It was born out of practical needs & the mixer is in use since about one and a half year.
The additional MC support just came to my mind, as I finally found a solution for implementing multi midi channel support.

PLUS strong mackie support

just to not let raise expectations: some functions won't work within scope simply because of the nature of scope
1st it'll be an unidirectional support (bidirectional is possible but uses additional ressources)
2nd some buttons like track automation mode, play/start/pause or record enable won't have a function, because there is no pendant inside the mixer and/or scope (These buttons could be used for other purposes)
3rd no sysex support inside scope at all, so no names are shown in the LCD
4th Vknobs LEDs use sysex as well (the Vknobs themself should work)

However it'll be a basic support for all important controls. It wouldn't make much sense to just control volume, would it ?

& was priced reasonably

It's not much money I ask for my stuff anyway.

cheers
Wolfgang

[husker]

I think without all the feedback stuff, and LCD support then MCU emulation would be much less useful.

I think what you have already done in extending the midi control of the mixer would be just fine.

Any info on how much DSP the mixer will use? The perfect mixer for me would still leave lots of DSP for the effects themselves...

[wolf]

hehe, well .. it uses slightly more than the STM Mixers because of the additional features, but due to heavy dsp allocation optimisation you are able to run a reliable project with 95 % dsp load (while the STM mixers only work correct with about 80 % max). It is also optimized to use i.e. warps plate and ambience verbs at the same time as aux inserts.
Channels become active if a cable is connected (like with the STM series) & you are also able to (de) activate it manually.
For serious mixing you should use at least two 15 dsp cards anyway, but it is usable on a 12-15 dsp config as well.

[moxi]

I really want to see the support of MC protocol on Creamware mixer.

But the only things that is really great with the MC protocol is the fact that mouse tweaking/automation are reflected on the faderbox LCDs/ledrings.

1st it'll be an unidirectional support (bidirectional is possible but uses additional ressources)

in this case, we miss what make the mc protocol so great, maybe it could be simpler so to work only on a less dsp consuming MIDI multi-channel option?

As I've spend a lot of time building MIDIcontroler, I can say that the MACKIE protocol is not a "must to have", cause there is already enough function in the box I use to get a good workflow. if the fact that you want to compliant with this protocol lead to need a lot of DSP to run the mixer, I would prefer a Mixer that only use standart MIDI with feedback.

I've speak around here about the MIDIbox project, so if such a mixer exist, I will publish here the config I will do for me to interact perfectly with such a mixer...

My point of view is the one of a guy that (only) own 9 DSPs...

[moxi]

Another question: What parameters do you really need to be supported ?
Currently these are implemented :
mute
solo
volume
pan
aux on/off 1-4
aux level 1-4

a PFL buton could be great if there is monitor Outs...

maybe some kind of meta-event to Mute/unmute all track at the same time..

euh...and the most helpfull, a buton to bypass the insert without having to open the device

[kylie]

maybe some kind of meta-event to Mute/unmute all track at the same time..

is midified mutegroups the feature in question? if so, I'd like that, too.

-greetings, markus-

[the19thbear]

well.. to me *COMPLETE* mackie mode is not a must. I wouldnt pay extra for that. I would though, LOVE what you have allready done! mackie controllable faders/pans+ automation. I really like the easiness of the automation in cubase... and being able to use this with cw mixer would be heaven! This would be an amazing setup for me to use with cubase!!! Looking forward to see this mixer! any screenshots yet?
good luck!

[kylie]

Looking forward to see this mixer! any screenshots yet?

http://www.planetz.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... 5&start=16

-greetings, markus-

[wolf]

shure, mute/solo, setting mute/solo groups, bypassing inserts, etc. can be controled via midi. There's a "mute all" button" in the master section as well as there is an 'unsolo' button (all buttons on the surface are midi controlable, btw).
Btw, thanks for relating to the pic, kylie Some buttons were added in the meantime, though ..

PFL: if you mean pre fader level -> yes, there is. pre fader listening isn't.
Moxi, do you mean with monitor a separate (monitor) mixer or just a control room output ?

regarding MC support: MC standard protocol sends / receives rel. controler (vknobs), pitch bend (level), notes (level and buttons) and sysex (led, lcd). Everything beside Sysex can be used in scope (well, I still need to do that relative contr. thingie, hopefully it works in reality like it does in my mind ).
This is, what I mean with MC protocol .. it simply works right of the box. Probablay we mean the same here, moxi.

Some history: The protocol was developed by M. Haydn, the creator of SoundDiver, for the company formerly known as emagic for their Logic controls. The hardware was a cowork with mackie. They simply did "took" everything and released their own thing called mackie control (which is eventually the same). Now the protocol is more or less industry standard for controler surfaces because it is straightforward.

However, this all sounds like a separate MC module fits better for all your needs ?

[moxi]

I was talking about Post Fader Listenen, with a dedicated output bus, to check what is recorded without cuting main output sound. But maybe it's enough if there is at least a way to check on a VU the level of a selected track..

and a last: my midi box have a great function: the "snapshot", that allow to send all value stored in a bank at the same time, that would be great if such a function is implemented, so when loading a project and just pressing one buton on the mixer, you send to the box all the states of buton/fader/knob to update LED and motor fader!

[wolf]

post fader listening is no problem at all. Even better .. while the control room outs can be set to listen before master inserts, the record output will stay unaffected.

yep, a send-all-control-values function would be cool. Scope sends out controler values on project start, but unfortunately there's no native solution to send them out again. I'd need to implement some kind of a dirty hack to get this to work ..

[LHong]

I like the SnapShot Function too!
What's happen if we load a new Preset, does it send all the control movements like Start-up Project?
Again, It would be nice!

[moxi]

...and cause it's so easy to ask :

do you think it's possible that you output as CC the vu meter values? (yes it's just because my MIDIbox is abble to drive LEDs meters from CC value )

it's just for the BrainStorm...

[wolf]

LHong, I'm not really shure but I believe changing presets doesn't send out ctrl. values.
moxi, shure it is possible to do that and I even would do this, if I'd know, you are not the only one demanding for it.

best
Wolfgang

[wolf]

Hi guys,

just a short & incomplete log to show off what happened the last days/weeks in the control surface support area .. add at least 2 hrs headscratching between every step

- multi midi channel: simple channel filtering does not work
- multi midi channel: adding custom cont. controler assignment for several parameters to support more than one midi channel (from now on everything mentioned is multi midi channel)
- added pitchbend control support for all gain related controls
. added basic relative control support for pan (2Complement)
- added note on/off control support for buttons
- raised pitch bend control resolution to 0.03 dB
- as most buttons send "off" on release, a flipflop circuit must be added to make their LEDs stay on
- added bidirectional support for all custom assignable parameters (beside pan)
- adjusting pitch bend curves
- adding fader bank switch support
- adding support to send out controller values on bank switch
- added some dev helper circuit (to easily update lots of values)
- adding buffer for fader bank switch
- removing superfluous midi messages
- added visual feedback on mixer surface for bank switch
- fixed a bug in bank switch (exclude notes, too many notes send out once)
- cleaning up circuit design & testing consequences
- adjusting output to input controler curves
- added & changed "bang fader" circuit (snapshot)
- added basic LED support
- restricted signal transmission for notes & PB to be send only on touch (bugfix for: settings are reset on project load due to above implementations)
- removed some debug stuff
- added bidirect. contr. for aux level
- added switch to alternate the MC-Faders to control level & aux 1-4 for both banks
- added LED feedback on MC for aux controlling fader switch
- changed pitch bend conversion circuit to have better output to input controler curve alignment (small drawback: resolution is now 0.05 dB)
- changed aux fader bank select circuit to make free assignments possible
- removing superfluous midi out messages again
- changed input converting circuit to save dsp
- changed input converting circuit back to old version as it doesn't allow more than one input signal at a time
- changed back pitch bend conversion circuit because it behaved irratically with more than one fader moved


still missing :
- auto note select function for touch feature
- test if controler curves do work well
- switch for CS, which don't support MC protocol (touch sensitivity, note on/off, etc.)
- testing multiple control functionality (moving more then one fader)
- bang fader on project load
- pan: circuit to avoid unwanted setting movement on project load
- more "intelligent" rel. contr. support (via conditional send & timer)
- sending out abs. contr. for pan (no need for rel. contr.)
- updated surface
- updated preset list
- adding support for all left out channels & master .. testing can start
- filter matrix to forward unused midi messages (? .. no idea, how to do in a dsp friendly way yet)