Death/Punk/Thrash mix in progress (like Abscess)

voidar · Post by **voidar** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:52 pm

I am currently working on this bands record. They aim for a Death Metal/Punk-sound ala Abscess/Autopsy/Death (first record) - a.k.a. dirty analog.

The project was tracked to 24 track 1" reel-to-reel tape and transfered to digital at the end of 2006.
All processing is done on my Creamware DSP at 48KHz using effects like the STW verbs, SPL Transient Designer, Vinco, ISON EQ, Spectral Balance Controller; and thankfully REAPER has made this all too easy

..
I've started mixing inside REAPER as well as I feel the 64-bit FP engine easily hangs with native SFP for this task (but that new Shroomz mixer looks tempting!). Also, I save resources this way.

This is first mixdown so please comment/suggest on improving the future of this mix.

I was thinking of gating a verb on the snare and toms.
Perhaps make the bass a tad bit hairer.
Also more dried up vocals.

There's a lot of glitches in this particular mixdown so I ask you not to pay much attention to them, but rather the sonics. (I might have to whip out the STS or VDAT for mixdown).

Recording includes bad language/humour.

UPDATE: Thrid try (11.03.2007)

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?a ... 0094617924

hifiboom · Post by **hifiboom** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:05 pm

Sounds pretty good so far...

the vocals are not totally melodic, but I`m sure this is intention...

I would take away the reverb from the vocals.... So its more in the face.
I would also try to archieve more presence on the drums. compressing or aother tricks to fatten them up...

(BTW: do you like Pantera - Vulgar display of power?

)

voidar · Post by **voidar** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:30 pm

Thanks for checking it out.
I'll definitely try some of your tips. If you run a Vinco RMS on the mix I find it cleans up a lot. It needs some of that pumping, which is why I put bass and kick pretty high.

I suspect the band is a bit conflicted regarding the sound. Vocalist wants more verb, the band doesn't, guitarist wants more guitars etc..

..

BTW. I tried to do a full analog mix back in the tracking day. Was pretty limited
Here's the same track for reference

http://download.yousendit.com/B93A972428CD1E1A

I've never been much into Pantera, but I am of course familiar with most of their output

..

katano · Post by **katano** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:40 am

voidar wrote:I suspect the band is a bit conflicted regarding the sound. Vocalist wants more verb, the band doesn't, guitarist wants more guitars etc..

always the same

will have a listen this evening...

hifiboom · Post by **hifiboom** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:13 am

hey voidar, I prefer the original analog mix....

has a bit more punch and fits better for that style...

voidar · Post by **voidar** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:39 am

I agree the full analog mix has a certain character to it that I like. I will aim for more of that sound.

Originally the band wanted another remix and I felt I had done what I could in that particular studio.
It's a cool place to track, but when it comes to mixing there are limited tools.
The coolest thing they had was probably the Valley People Dynamite. And that A&H Saber console is pretty ok too

..

katano · Post by **katano** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:52 am

hey voidar

i agree with hifiboom, the original sounds much better in my ears. the new lacks on power on guitars, drums (except the overheads are a bit to much up front). i also don't like the reverb on the vocals, it's to much for that kind of music... snare and toms are also to thin and i miss the attack on the bassdrum... sorry for the negative feedback, i think you have to redo the mix, maybe from the beginning...

cheers
roman

hifiboom · Post by **hifiboom** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:53 am

I`m still considering using an external mixer combined with Scope mixers to get a smoother sound....

route every single channel from STM1632 to a single analog channel through a CW A16 and record the mix back....

So you get best of both worlds:

Analog mixing and the possibility to use the internal Scope fx in inserts... plus an analog EQ on every channel.
But I am also happy with the Scope mixers at the moment, as I don`t have an ADAT channel rack....

voidar, did you try to mix completly in Scope or in Reaper, I have the feeling - although it does not make sense - that mixing in Scope sounds cleaner and better than f.e. Cubase SX.

I have many SX mixes that sound bad, but I got many mixes in Scope that sound very well.
So I decided to do mixing no more native but only in Scope mixers.
maybe an illusion. But I trust my feelings.

katano · Post by **katano** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:57 am

ah, forgot to say, i think it's possible to do a mix all within scope that sounds (more) like the original one...

voidar · Post by **voidar** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:19 am

hifibloom:

As of now I am mixing within REAPER, using a lot of ReaInsert plug-ins.
I have no real doubt about the signal integrity in this application, being 64-bit floating point through and through. Cubase I can understand with its 32-bit floating point precision. I would gladly select Scope mixing before that.

But I don't think clarity is that important for this material. The analog mix which you like better is quite muddy, so I think you agree.

I might try mixing down with this new Shroomz mixer though.

katano:

I agree with you that it should be possible to do this in Scope too.

The new mix is too clean, I agree. Like the kick, I actually like the new kick more than the old one, but it could use some more low-end punch. I like how it cuts, while the old one is harder to hear because of the subs.
I think I hipassed the drum buss at 40Hz, which might not be needed.

Anyway, thanks for your words on this

.

katano · Post by **katano** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:22 am

what about freshen up the old mix with some bx_digital, psyQ etc.? i think bx_digital could do magic to this kinda mix!

ah, the overall loudness of the new mix is way lower than the original one, guess it's not mastered yet...

cheers
roman

voidar · Post by **voidar** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:31 am

Just a simple "float-drive" (overdriven floating point bus) does wonders to the old mix

, so I kind of agree somewhat. But I am not too happy with the toms on the old one, and the band had some requests also, so I am afraid I have to proceed on this.
But I enjoy it so..

None of the mixes have been mastered.
I intended to put a Vinco on the mains, but I forgot due to short time. Also I would rather try a DAS SL9000 Master Comp. Just have to buy some of their other plug-ins first

. Any advice?

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:17 pm

Hey Voidar, I don't know anything about producing this style of music (sorry), but if you try the VM-1242 mixer, please give me feedback. If it's good feedback post it on the device thread. If it's bad feedback, post it in a PM

(just kidding)

Post by **hubird** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:09 pm

If I was recording life tracks I would definitely use theVM1242!
Master compression? Take Optimaster...

hifiboom · Post by **hifiboom** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:52 pm

Shroomz wrote: If it's good feedback post it on the device thread. If it's bad feedback, post it in a PM (just kidding)

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:53 am

voidar wrote:hifibloom:
As of now I am mixing within REAPER, using a lot of ReaInsert plug-ins.
I have no real doubt about the signal integrity in this application, being 64-bit floating point through and through. ...

I'm almost certain that Katano is right with his opinion that the mix can be much better in Scope.

I like Reaper very much, but I haven't come across anything (not even SAW) that mixes as pleasant, punchy and transparent out of the box like Scope.
I didn't compare them scientifically back and forth, but whenever I happened to have Reaper's (or any other progs 'sum') on the monitors I had to adjust a ton of things to just get the levels right - while Scope miraculously always starts with a balanced, usable default.

To my ears the mix sounds totally flat, the individual signals seem to have a very nice quality each, but simply lack the space to breath.

cheers, Tom

voidar · Post by **voidar** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:17 pm

Here's an update. Small progress. Still a REAPER-mix (waiting for the Shroomz mixer

..)

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?a ... 47ce8dbe27

All your comments have been much appreciated so far

.

Hmm... Am I hearing something strange here, some weird artifacts. Almost like a third harmonic added to the guitars in that mid-part.??

I've been working in 48KHz, and then converted to 44.1KHz using r8brain pro.

bassdude · Post by **bassdude** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:08 am

It's getting there!

The guitar solo toward the end sounds like someone playing guitar over a CD. Probably not the effect you want. What effect did you put on it by the way? IMO, the vocal has a little too much reverb and the drums are too dry as they sound as though they are right up front and recorded in a small boxy room. It seems like the mix is still not sitting together quite as well as it could be. Have you heard Root, Bloody Roots by Sepultura? That would be a good comparison mix.

By the way, I like very much. The cymbals sound great and production values are really good. Just need to get the mix sitting better.

voidar · Post by **voidar** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:14 am

Good to hear there is some progres!

Yeah, my guess on the solos and vocals is that there is too much compression. I actually compressed those on tracking (back then I wanted to save time), so I should lighten up on it.
Also, I need to figure out what to do with the solos and backing vocals. I used some inverted phase stuff, so it disappears in mono. Any tips? STW chorus/delay perhaps.

bassdude · Post by **bassdude** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:34 pm

I didn't think there were backing vocals, just different vocal parts. At the start I think I hear one of these backing vocal parts that have inverse phase? That sounds good. Inverse phase on guitar solo is not so good. Makes it too seperate from the rest of the mix. Compressed vocal is good but I would back off the reverb a bit. The thing is you can boost reverb for effect in certain parts of the track. But generally i would back it off quite a bit for the main. The drums sound like they were recorded in a smallish box shaped room. is this right? That is going to be harder to deal with as no matter what you do you will only amplify that sound. Be careful with overall drum compression. If you need to smooth big transients, then instead of doing that with compression do it with cut and paste (takes longer). To start off with I would try a hall reverb and gate that pretty hard.
These are just ideas I would muck around with.
What were you thinking about adding the chorus and delay too?