Modartt Pianoteq

Ben Walker · Post by **Ben Walker** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:51 am

Anyone else tried this out?
http://www.pianoteq.com/index

I was intrigued after reading a very positive review in Sound On Sound.
An 8 MB modelled PIano which sounds as good as any of the monster muliti-sampled vsti's out there, which (as its modelled) allows you to alter loads of the modelling parameters to change resonance, tuning, piano size, etc, etc, and what's more it behaves like a real piano in terms of velocity response, repeated strikes, natural harmonics, etc.

I dl'ed the demo and was immediately impressed - it's such a quick and easy install, and just works out of the box, and to my ears sounds really good, and is extremely playable. Up until now I've been using the piano that comes with Kontakt 2, but even on my relatively well specc'ed PC I get awful behaviour if I hold the sustain pedal down for more than a few notes. I was thinking about getting Ivory, but worried about similar performance issues.

I'd urge you to have a look if you're interested - even if its just out of curiosity to see how an 8 MB piece of software can do the job of something that up until now has come on multiple DVD's! There are nice mp3's on the website, and the demo is a fully functional 45 day trial with just a few notes missing.

Cheers,
Ben

petal · Post by **petal** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:27 am

I downloaded the demo, and they have captured the initial sound pretty well, but the sustain at least to my ears, sounds almost as a normal GM piano-sound, and you can hear how the sound goes through 3 stages of the modelation, if you listen carefully.
Maybe it will work in a full mix with lots of other stuff going on, but not as a solo instrument.

I used to play the piano when growing up, and the only thing I've encountered that could make me play my midi-keyboard as if it were a real piano is the "Old Lady"-sample-collection for Giga-studio, which I find to be amazing.

Still I think it's an interesting piece of software, which I believe is on the right track, so thanks for the link

Mr Arkadin · Post by **Mr Arkadin** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 5:16 am

Well i got Ivory as a Chrimbo pressie, but i wish i'd waited a bit. i haven't tried the demo of this yet, but i have it to try. However it is quite expensive (having already bought Ivory) and there is also TruePianos that is due shortly, so i'd wait to try the demo of that as well - it's the same idea as Pianoteq, modelling no or small samples. That's the only thing about Ivory is you do get some clicks with the streaming, so i would probably use TruePianos or Pianotq as a low-CPU 'quick ideas' piano and then render a 24 bit multilayered Ivory sound (assuming it's better than either of the modelled ones).

Ben Walker · Post by **Ben Walker** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:46 am

petal - agreed it's not perfect - but for my purposes it's definitely good enough. It's realistic enough to be good for practice and improvisation, would sit fine in a mix, and it's a low cpu, low disk usage instrument, which is great compared to what I've been using. Nothing is less inspirational than having a great big CPU glitch just because you've exceeded a few notes polyphony due to over use of the sustain pedal! Sometimes Kontact just stops playing altogether and I have to wait for it to pick itself off the floor before I can continue.

I'm getting a real piano in April anyway

, but for the studio this is just what I've been looking for.

And like I said, I think it's quite fascinating as a piece of software as well - that they can get even this close using modelling techniques rather than 10,000 multisamples is amazing to me. True piano looks nice too btw - I'd not heard of that before Mr A mentioned it.

Ben

wolf · Post by **wolf** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:06 am

The good thing about piamoteq is, that you can modulate the parameters and can get some really crazy sounds going - kind of damaging a piano and repair it again

.
Other than that I very much prefer Ivory for the real thing for solo stuff, because the sound and playability is much better (for me).

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:23 am

I also noticed this a couple of weeks ago, but since I'm currently more on the string side of things it's got a low priority level.

But it does sympathetic string resonance and seems to be very adjustable to your keyboard - sounds perfect to me.
It may lack a few details of the individual sonic character of a specific physical piano, but I'm almost certain that a (CWA) Modular add-on would complete it in a way that noone could tell the difference from the real thing.
Additional filters, eqs, resonances or even noises are fairly easy to add, controlled by midi data.

If I'll get anything piano-like then it will be this device, with a cheap 88 keyboard it ends at 650 Euro, half the price of a Kawai ES4 (my favourite candidate so far).
Acoustically a steal, but the Kawai's keyboard is for sure nicer than any of the cheapos

cheers, Tom

Mr Arkadin · Post by **Mr Arkadin** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:31 am

Well i have this Kurzweil PC88 which has a good piano sound - except it's died. The MIDI functions perfectly and i already had it repared for £180, so i figure rather than repairing it again (and possibly having it die again), leave it dead and get a piano module. As i said i have Ivory which sounds beautiful, but for a plug 'n' play piano that doesn't take ages to load and then glitch with too much streaming, Pianoteq or TruePianos is definitely on the wish list - just waiting for the TruePianos demo and then i can test side by side, and also against Ivory.

Mr Arkadin · Post by **Mr Arkadin** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 12:39 pm

UPDATE

TruePianos is now released. Try the demo here, i know i will.

Ben Walker · Post by **Ben Walker** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 2:20 pm

Heh heh, I was too tempted by the group buy and went ahead and bought the PianoTeq just before I heard about TruePianos - and then it comes out on the same day and is cheaper! So I'm going to avoid the demo for a while just in case I end up thinking I end up thinking I made the wrong decision! So far I'm very happy with PianoTeq - definitely good enough for noodling around in the studio with - and you can make some very interesting (but usable) sounds by choosing extreme modelling settings.
B

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:17 pm

I think I like the "diamond" sound from truepiano more than pianoteq.. somehow, pianoteq sounds like the hammers are either too soft, or is miced in a special way.. anyway, the attack sounds very soft to me.

will be checking out truepiano, now.

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:17 pm

my verdict:
truepiano definitely gets my vote. Beats my PMI hybrid piano collection 1 through 4 hands down.

Still I prefer a little more presence of the hammer.. something's missing. Maybe the key down sound or something at the attack..

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:37 pm

Pianoteq is physically modelled - there is nothing miked in it

I prefer their concept, even with some 'imperfections' in the sound.
those instruments have character - and the company has a clear concept.
Truepiano seems an obscure mixture of 'best of' techniques, they choose whatever they consider appropriate to create an uberpiano (imho), my personal guess is that it's for 90% a sampler - and they jump the train of Pianoteq's public attention.
(you cannot sell another giga lib - and you cannot sell a small, well-tuned soundset either - so a buzzword is needed)

The programmer has worked on Truepiano for years (according to his website) - a strange coincidence that he finished just in time, to present it when the other company starts to benefit from their marketing efforts.

I'd stick with Pianoteq - it's an original product (excellent programming btw) and after all it's french

cheers, Tom

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:12 pm

ok, rephrase "sounds as if it's miced in a special way".

pianoteq is obviously very good, it just has a very specific sound to it.. It's just personal preference. Different strokes for different folks. Different piano sounds for different --- uh, folks. (anyone come up with a good rhyme?)

speaking of rhymes, I heard a really funny blues song today on itunes radio..
something to the effect of:
"you said you life was boring a plain
I took you to a night club,
and the whole band knew your name!
what you said don't ring true
baby, I got news for you.

You said your watch was a present from Uncle Joe
and I read the inscription... it said
"from your Daddy Yo"
what you said don't ring true
baby, I got news for you."

lol. good stuff.

Mr Arkadin · Post by **Mr Arkadin** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:48 am

At the end of the day i don't give a monkey's how the sound is produced, i'll go with whatever sounds best, just as long as it has a small footprint on my CPU/hard drive use (the main problem with Ivory). If there are samples in TruePianos (i haven't checked the specifics) i'd imagine they're just the attack portion (a la Roland's LA synthesis) as it has small CPU use. As long as those samples don't start creeping up in size i'm fine with it. If Pianoteq sounds better i have aproblem of cost as i just got Ivory and can't spend the same amount again on Pianoteq.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:51 am

kensuguro wrote:my verdict:
truepiano definitely gets my vote. Beats my PMI hybrid piano collection 1 through 4 hands down. ...

well, the guy behind it is the same person as behind the sample processing of the Vienna Symphonic Library, so it's not entirely surprising...
eventually he verifies my own point of view that it doesn't need tons of samples to build a 'convincing' instrument.

Truepiano for sure sounds excellent - I only had an old K4 keyboard at hand (really worn out), but the program could be adjusted effortlessly to compensate for it's (severe) lack of dynamic.
Most likely the full data sets will also cover a wide range of sounds.

My own judgement is just a personal preference (or scepticism) regarding 'overly perfect' sounds. I noticed it in various circumstances, for example with a specific bass or guitar and - which I found most amusing - even with violins (on a TV show once).
They had a 'shootout' between a true Stradivarius, a replica master instrument, a carbon violin etc - all supposed to play in the top range. The task was to blindly identify the 'Stradivarius' .

Needless to tell that the majority picked the wrong one, the high tech violin.
Some 'experts' had made really bold statements about their abilities before... and about the fact that a 'high tech' instrument could never(!) compete with a 'real one'...

They've all been fooled by a 'full' and surely impressive tone, but it was a no-brainer (imho), even with the crappy TV tone, to identify the original by the sheer beauty of the final 'decaying' notes - none of the other instruments has this detail and balance, but it had an almost shy performance.

as you wrote - it's good that not all sound equal and that we all have different tastes, would be pretty boring the other way round

cheers, Tom

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:35 am

well, the guy behind it is the same person as behind the sample processing of the Vienna Symphonic Library, so it's not entirely surprising...
eventually he verifies my own point of view that it doesn't need tons of samples to build a 'convincing' instrument.

heh, totally agree. too many multi gigabyte instruments that sound like crap. I think post giga sampler, sample making became a no-brainer. Get the best instrument, the best producer (for recognition), best studio, and wham you have a product. And many times the resulting patch's feel and response is ignored.. because theoretically, if you've sampled "everything", you can't go wrong right? Well, as many people know, it is possible to get many gigs of crap.

Just tested pianoteq for a detailed study. The modeling is great. I've never heard piano modeling done so well. The only problem is that the modeling for the middle C to around C5 is a little strange.. Seems they have a great engine, the parameters just need to be a little more non-linear, or range specific so the response can change depending on range.

This is the C1 preset with the hammer sound turned up a bit. You can tell the right hand sound is a little odd. Has a pad-ish, almost bell-ish sound to it. Reminds me of a karplus-strong plucked string for some reason. And then there are moments where it's just sheer beauty. It's a strange feeling to play this. Jimmy, don't laugh at my playing.

Post by **garyb** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:52 am

the playing's ok. the piano seems mediocre.

Mr Arkadin · Post by **Mr Arkadin** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:44 am

Sounds plucked like a clavichord or something - quite odd.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:57 am

for a fully synthesized piano and a first release it's pretty good

you certainly have to adjust the 'model' to your specific keyboard's response, the example sounds a bit 'mechanical', as if the parts don't fully match yet.
The airy (pad-like) touch is probably due to the string resonance, at least that was always the most obvious difference to a sampled thing whenever I 'played' something on a real piano in the music shop.
There's a lot of expertise in the company, so it looks promising.
Btw they didn't hide their code, but their competitor does...

cheers, Tom

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 1:05 pm

definitely right about it being a promising company/prouct. I'd kill for a piano that's this light, and this tweakable. I love how much you can tweak the model.