Analog/tube character device to be used with the CW mixers

rodos1979 · Post by **rodos1979** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:52 pm

Hello!

I was "playing" with Shroomz's VM-42 Valve Mixer, when I had this idea: what about a device that adds a tube/analog flavour to the sound and can be used with the existing CW mixers...
This device (ideally) would have the following specifications/features:
- it would be modular in the way the DynamicMixer is. You could choose from a minimum of 4 inputs/outputs (for use with MicroMixer with 4 mono channels) to maximum of 48 inputs/outputs (for use with STM2448 with 24 stereo channels)
- the device would consist of a number of tubes (4-48 maximum) with a drive/effect knob that sets the amount of the process (from "no effect" to "maximum effect"). When set to 0, the "channel" is in bypass (same audio in the input and output of the channel) [think of CW Soft Clip]
- there should be a Gain knob too that regulates the sound after the process (with a range of +/-6dB)
- the device should load in one DSP to avoid phase issues
- ideally the GUI would have a drive knob, a gain knob and a tube for each "channel". Ideally, the more drive you give the more the tube should light, so one can have a pleasing visual of the drive setting.

In the Routing window you would connect this device before all the channels of your prefered mixer. That way you would mix as normal, but give a more analog feel to the sound to your taste.

I know that one can do that more or less by using several MultiFX devices, with a SoftClip loaded in each slot, but nevertheless I think it would be useful and cool to have a device like the one I am imagining..

What do you think?

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:38 pm

I've been wanting one for AGES! gimme gimme!

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:59 am

I'll build this over the next few days, but it won't be 'dynamic' in the sense you describe & won't have anywhere near max 48 channels on 1 dsp. Most of the dsp usage of the VM-42 is in the 4 channels, so even by removing the mix stage & pan modules I'll probably only get 5 or maybe 6 channels on 1 dsp.

I really like the sound of the VM-42 now, so rather than changing the range of the valve drive parameters to start at bypass on this strip, I might just add a bypass switch to each channel to allow clean or coloured operation, comparisons etc.

btw, CW softclips cannot give the sound of CW's ECC83 tube sims

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:16 am

is it possible to just forget about the 1dsp thing and just do more channels? Frankly, I don't think I give a damn about phase if I can get 16 channels. I use the cw mixer without phase compensation anyway. Of course there maybe more complications than I can think of.. just not sure how expensive the whole tube thing is, compared to normal mixer components.

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:30 am

Yep, no problem at all. I personally think an 8-channel strip would make most sense. It would use just under 2 dsps, so single Luna card users could even load it. For 16 channels you would just load a second instance. If it's an 8 mono channel strip without a stereo mix stage phase issues won't come into it. The 2nd 4 of the 8 channels might have a 1 or 2 sample difference in delay, but that shouldn't be a problem for most people. I've been thinking about the idea of an 8-ch strip all along. Infact the VM-42 started out as an 8-ch strip until I maxed out a dsp and got an error when trying to copy the 6th channel. I then changed my mind & made the 4-ch mixer

musurgio · Post by **musurgio** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:47 am

Dear Shroomz do you rmember my kind asking of the small tube/tape device that would be based on my preset of your ecc83 device ?
This without any knobs nothing at all just the same preset of volume driv2 control resonance and output.
Will you evntually make that or you have no time now ?
This could be well used as tube/tape warmer and would be ligght on dsp would it ?
Regards,
Dimitrios

rodos1979 · Post by **rodos1979** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:34 am

Great that you are going to build that for us Shroomz!

I didn't know that the process was so DSP heavy...

Ok, an 8-channel strip would be just fine then... Can you put a link button, so that the tube and gain setting are duplicated in the adjacent channel for stereo use? Or if this is difficult, then it would be handy if one could enter the amount of tube drive and gain numerically too, so one could make sure manually that settings are exactly duplicated in the next channel. Mmm, this would actually be the best thing to do. So forget the link button, just give the possibility to enter values numerically.

About the phase issue.. Is it difficult to implement a phase compensation button like the one in the CW mixers?...

Cheers

katano · Post by **katano** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:52 am

rodos1979 wrote:About the phase issue.. Is it difficult to implement a
phase compensation button like the one in the CW mixers?...

I always thought that the phase compensation button on stm mixers is
only for automatically adjust samples of the INPUT SIGNAL on
predefined channels if needed AND NOT to compensate sample delay
occuring at mixing stage.

Could someone confirm?

Look at the stm manual, page18:
ftp://ftp.creamware.com/Manuals/SCOPE/M ... 204896.pdf

Cheers
Roman

rodos1979 · Post by **rodos1979** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:11 am

Oh... Then I had a wrong impression of phase compensation all this time! I thought that the phase comp button was to correct the phase issues due to loading on different DSPs..

If it is to align the inputs.. then, it almost has no use...

Mmm... or maybe it has a very good one!.. Shroomz's 8-channel strip may suffer from small phase delays (2-3 samples), with stereo audio, due to DSP allocation.. but when the signal reaches the STM with the Phase Comp button ON, then this phase issue is corrected! That is great!

So.. Shroomz, forget about the 1dsp and the phase issues..

katano · Post by **katano** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:29 pm

rodos1979 wrote:If it is to align the inputs.. then, it almost has no use...

I agree, if you mix electronical stuff. I disagree if you record/mix "real" music, i.e. drums or piano as described in the manual...

cheers
roman

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:49 pm

I'll make sure the device is sample delay compensated accross the channels, but to be honest it won't be for stereo pairing but rather channel alignment. For stereo pairing I'd actually prefer a to make a specific 4 X stereo channel version. With less controls it would actually be smaller too.

Dimitrios, check here > http://www.planetz.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... 4&start=40

Let me know if it's ok.

musurgio · Post by **musurgio** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:28 am

Dear Shroomz your mixer sounds fantastic !!
Even with full drive the tube effect is warm round and super nice !!
I wonder this is different from your first mixer version where the distortion of the drive effect was not so nice (sorry).
Can you please make the 0 of the level right at 12 o'clock so when we double click the pot it will automatically be at 0 position ?
Also the numeric level pad is essntial for stero work as you never know if you have EXACTLY the same volume for two channels.
I am waiting for the 8 or even 16 version !!
Regards,
Dimitrios

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:08 am

You're right, that the mixer sounds much better now. The sound of the mixer (particularly the new special 'drive' parameter) has improved A LOT since I started tweeking & fine tuning it while feeding it DE LA SOUL albums

I didn't really want to make the 0 position dead center, but I understand the need for the double-click detent, so I'll fix it over the weekend.

LHong · Post by **LHong** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:02 am

Yeah, I like the ideal concept for an Analog/tube Mixer. In addition, I wish to have the fully control (Automation) of 16 MIDI Channels independently + CC assignment capabilily.
Is it possible?

LongStudios

dawman · Post by **dawman** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:09 am

I have used the ECC83S w/ great sucsess in it's own AUX channel on the STM1632, and the incredibly well designed DAS Modular Mixer. This seems to work very well om my electro-mechanical samples. But I would love a mono in / mono out valve / tube channel strip w/ 2 x post inserts ( stereo ) for adding seperate FX, as these would be used in the DAS Modular 4 mic'd percussion, and vocals.
I will never use hardware mixers 4 live performance again, as I have tried some very good hardware mixers as the Crest XRM series w/ Lexicon PCM91, and the DAS MM w/ the PCM91 re-routed into SFP. I must admit, the Lexicon 960L would be awesome to use w/ this but @ 10 large, they can suck my ass. However, w/ the DAS MM MIDI mappings, and routings, I can assign the PCM91 to whoever is singing the lead vocals, and use the MPX550 on an AUX buss for the background VX as a generic preset suffices 4 that. It is important to have the main effect on the lead vocal. Now if I had a valve/tube channel strip,............

I Am Quite Sure More Has Been Done With Less, Sorry 'Bout That at0m,

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:27 pm

Check out the VP-8

..... http://www.planetz.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=21224