had a chance to play a wurlitzer... tell ya the truth, it didn't sound like any of the samples I've heard so far. Granted, it's not the 200a model that seems to be the standard wurlitzer model being sampled (not sure which model it was I played), but I was just so surprised how different it sounded.
But the keys felt simply awesome. Much lighter than a piano hammer action, still retaining enough key stroke distance, light enough for much quicker passages than piano hammer actions. The feeling of actually striking down and hitting a hard bottom, and hearing the metal tines actually being struck is just awesome. That feeling of "wow, this is physical stuff moving around!" is very real. (obviously because it's the real deal)
You know, with the technology we have now, why can't we produce these things at lower costs? Too expensive to maintain? I mean, my guess is, it takes less man power to make a mechanical version than to find an old electromagnetic keyboard, restore it, tune it, record it, physically model it, etc.. I dunno.. It would be interesting to see some people go back and really make new electromagnetic instruments. Much like how some of the sequential stuff and moog stuff is being remade in analogue domain.
Or atleast model the action. It felt awesome! We can have:
"keyboard action for synth lines"
"hammered piano action for pianos"
"wurlitzer hammered action"
"rhodes hammered action"
"clavinet action"
"organ action" (not just "waterfall" synth keys like clavia has, but the real deal)
obviously different actions make you play a different way, or there are distinct playing styles you can take advantage of.. would be nice if that can be replicated, not just sampling the results.
just played a real wurlitzer
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Nestor
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We all would love something like thins, but then you are faced to the obvious problems of big heavy hardware: space, mobility, lift cost, and then cables... If one single keyboard could do all, and be at the same time the MIDI one, that could be a neat solution, but nobody will come back to having several big heavy keyboards in their rooms anymore, when you can go with quite the same sounds to your gig, with a laptop... The more we go, the more we get use to small things, and flats are getting smaller all the time as well, what we call a department, it is rather a rats whole in most big cities, unless you are lucky to have a big house, and a large van. Anyway, of course that I would love to have my old Rhodes at home, instate of the bunch of sampled Rhodes I have, no way.
*MUSIC* The most Powerful Language in the world! *INDEED*
I have a wurlitzer 200a. I found it in a donation store and got it for €70 a few years back 
But after a few days the amplifier died on it and the repairing of it costed me about €130
It also had one or two tones missing, so I had to buy replacements for it and tune them in. that was about another €50.
Still a perfectly working Wurlitzer 200A for €250, and the adventure that came with it is a decent price if you ask me
But after a few days the amplifier died on it and the repairing of it costed me about €130
It also had one or two tones missing, so I had to buy replacements for it and tune them in. that was about another €50.
Still a perfectly working Wurlitzer 200A for €250, and the adventure that came with it is a decent price if you ask me
Nestor,
obviously the real one is another thing of an another planet, but you could look for a synth wich does some phisical modelling of a e-piano instead to use te sampled pianos.
I have a KorgZ1 wich does wonders IMO: for example you could control the parameters related to the pick-up. It does phisical modelling of bowed and picked strings, reed instruments, brasses, hammond organs and a lot more. The sound of subtractive algoritms is cold and less refined compared to ours Pro-12 minimax etc... but for the other tasks is very convenient and transportable (the weight is about 13 kg).
I've heard that Clavia has done another P.M. synth for e-piano.
obviously the real one is another thing of an another planet, but you could look for a synth wich does some phisical modelling of a e-piano instead to use te sampled pianos.
I have a KorgZ1 wich does wonders IMO: for example you could control the parameters related to the pick-up. It does phisical modelling of bowed and picked strings, reed instruments, brasses, hammond organs and a lot more. The sound of subtractive algoritms is cold and less refined compared to ours Pro-12 minimax etc... but for the other tasks is very convenient and transportable (the weight is about 13 kg).
I've heard that Clavia has done another P.M. synth for e-piano.
Welcome to the dawning of a new empire
there are tons of inspiring ways to make an entirely synthetic e-piano (I gave up looking for samples long ago), yet I completely agree with Ken.
There is no such thing as the real thing
good deal Petal, reminds me at that Hohner Electra in perfect condition that I missed on eBay last year - it eventually sold for a similiar amount (I had expected something else, so didn't bother to bid... outch)
hopefully next week I'll receive a Pianet-T, couldn't withstand...
cheers, Tom
There is no such thing as the real thing
good deal Petal, reminds me at that Hohner Electra in perfect condition that I missed on eBay last year - it eventually sold for a similiar amount (I had expected something else, so didn't bother to bid... outch)
hopefully next week I'll receive a Pianet-T, couldn't withstand...
cheers, Tom
I love those little babies. They were the choice of many music departments as they were cheaper than having spinets all over the place. The vibrato potentiometers were all disabled, as the students learning were too distracted by that sound.
I have the Scarbee samples which are quite excellant. Even with the mod wheel vibrato. Not to rub it in, but on my Oberheim MC3000 I have 48 different velocity settings for feel. The keys are weighted ( not quite piano ) and are a good comprimise between synth and ivory / wood. Afterall I don't play Chopin 24 / 7. But between the 3 88's I use, it is the best controller ever made. Even better than my old KX88. That action turned to taters' and gravy after too many tours. I only use 4 velocity settings. But they are important on my Scarbee clavinet D6, and B3 patches for the style of playing is different and requires that you don't cheese out with a sustain pedal.
Good Thread Ken,
I have the Scarbee samples which are quite excellant. Even with the mod wheel vibrato. Not to rub it in, but on my Oberheim MC3000 I have 48 different velocity settings for feel. The keys are weighted ( not quite piano ) and are a good comprimise between synth and ivory / wood. Afterall I don't play Chopin 24 / 7. But between the 3 88's I use, it is the best controller ever made. Even better than my old KX88. That action turned to taters' and gravy after too many tours. I only use 4 velocity settings. But they are important on my Scarbee clavinet D6, and B3 patches for the style of playing is different and requires that you don't cheese out with a sustain pedal.
Good Thread Ken,
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Nestor
- Posts: 6688
- Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Fourth Dimension Paradise, Cloud Nine!
All I need is some more DSP power, I have only a Pulsar I and so with a SCOPE system would be for me more than enough power, for years to come.
Then, I need a faster CUP, I have a 2.4GH and need something like a 3.0GH.
Then I need some more RAM, I have 1GB PC400 and would be cool to get 4GB.
Finally, would love to get a few more of the core Creamware plug-in like Flexor and Minimax, that’s it.
I see, quite frequently in forums and gigs, that most electronic musicians are always on a never ending search... looking for the latest gadget, the latest plug-in, the latest synth, the latest sample CD, etc., etc. I don’t feel the need to own so many instruments to make music. I don’t feel this is good for me personally anyway, because it would be too expensive and distractive. I would spend many hours of my life to pay for things that I bought today and that will get “old” tomorrow. I don’t believe in “old” sound or “new” sound anyway, I prefer to understand it as “I like this sound”, “I don’t like this sound”.
All I need to have to produce my music, I already have. Some more PC power and a few particular Creamware plug-ins would be cool to get, but not strictly necessary. I personally prefer to use my energy in composing, creating, and enjoying the musical process itself. Don’t misunderstand me, if you, whoever you are, need to get a bunch of instruments every year to feel satisfied, that’s right, it’s just nor right for me. What I want to see every end of the year is a amazing assortment of good songs to listen at and give away to the world, the satisfaction to have stepped onto my before musical skills, becoming a better skilled, more mature musician, composer and arranger.
If a plug-in was to truly revolutionise my musical life in a radical way, like Pulsar did in its time, well... no question, I would love to have this tool to work with! But if you look well to your plug-in’s folder, you’ll see that you could do perhaps 50, 80%, and sometimes even 100% of what you do with “another” plug-in, with the first one! So... it seems that this apparent “need” for having new plug-ins is not a “need” after all, but simple covetousness introduced in your mind by the tremendous insistence of the market. When the market insists so much onto musician minds, many fall and start getting onto new instruments and plug-ins they don’t need at all. And what for, to do exactly the same thing they did 10 years ago, or even to go back in time and compose the music we used to hear in the 60s.
I guess that sometimes musicians get bored in their houses, just like everybody, and don’t know what to do. We all get bored now and then for lack of inspiration perhaps, so we have some spare money and a spiky lighting idea comes to our minds saying: “why don’t you get up, go to the music shop and get something “new”? The magical word “NEW” thrills us so much! And then the other one so much used today “MORE”. And there we go, to spend another 50 to 200 dollars to “try” if this is magical, but it is not, there are some differences in texture compared with the one plug-in we already have in this category, but you could nevertheless achieve this very timbre by yourself with some transformation plug-ins. You install it and play for a few hours, then get bored again because it didn’t what you wanted for it to do: inspire you!... You wait till next month and then start the process all over again.
So the reason to get something new is not always for the real usability of the plug-in but rather, because we are market-ill-consumers and we do exactly the same thing women do in fashion, but with instruments, samples, plug-ins and the sort, we buy, and buy, and buy, and store and store and store, then we uninstall, and uninstall, and uninstall, and start all over again.
If you were to reflect, but truly detached from other peoples impressions and ideas, apparent needs and advertisements promising you will quickly disappear. The advert telling you that you will sound exactly like the artist you most love will virtually vanish. Then, I’m sure you will divide very well between what you NEED from what you WANT, which are quite different things. Wants are sometimes the “needs” of the market, but not yours...
Go and see what you’ve already got, try to remember how many “SONGS” have you actually done and recorded with it, then thing how much you could do with this particular such and such instrument, and you’ll be surprised to know that the shop you are looking for, is already at home, and all you have to do is to get active, involved and creative.
Then I think creativity is something that, it’s true, can be helped, enhanced by an instrument or some new samples, absolutely true yes, but inspiration does not come from these new samples but from within you, yourself! The “raison detre” of inspiration is not an instruments but your emotions and personal experiences in life, your sensitivity, your perception of the inner and outer world!
So, my point is that if we were to use more time looking for within ourselves this music we love so much, instate of looking for into shops, we would compose a lot more music, would be much more authentic in what we do, more resources efficient, and by the end of the year we could be completely satisfied by the outcome of our creativity, despite the fact we already own the same plug-ins we had years and years ago.
Just a point to think about
Then, I need a faster CUP, I have a 2.4GH and need something like a 3.0GH.
Then I need some more RAM, I have 1GB PC400 and would be cool to get 4GB.
Finally, would love to get a few more of the core Creamware plug-in like Flexor and Minimax, that’s it.
I see, quite frequently in forums and gigs, that most electronic musicians are always on a never ending search... looking for the latest gadget, the latest plug-in, the latest synth, the latest sample CD, etc., etc. I don’t feel the need to own so many instruments to make music. I don’t feel this is good for me personally anyway, because it would be too expensive and distractive. I would spend many hours of my life to pay for things that I bought today and that will get “old” tomorrow. I don’t believe in “old” sound or “new” sound anyway, I prefer to understand it as “I like this sound”, “I don’t like this sound”.
All I need to have to produce my music, I already have. Some more PC power and a few particular Creamware plug-ins would be cool to get, but not strictly necessary. I personally prefer to use my energy in composing, creating, and enjoying the musical process itself. Don’t misunderstand me, if you, whoever you are, need to get a bunch of instruments every year to feel satisfied, that’s right, it’s just nor right for me. What I want to see every end of the year is a amazing assortment of good songs to listen at and give away to the world, the satisfaction to have stepped onto my before musical skills, becoming a better skilled, more mature musician, composer and arranger.
If a plug-in was to truly revolutionise my musical life in a radical way, like Pulsar did in its time, well... no question, I would love to have this tool to work with! But if you look well to your plug-in’s folder, you’ll see that you could do perhaps 50, 80%, and sometimes even 100% of what you do with “another” plug-in, with the first one! So... it seems that this apparent “need” for having new plug-ins is not a “need” after all, but simple covetousness introduced in your mind by the tremendous insistence of the market. When the market insists so much onto musician minds, many fall and start getting onto new instruments and plug-ins they don’t need at all. And what for, to do exactly the same thing they did 10 years ago, or even to go back in time and compose the music we used to hear in the 60s.
I guess that sometimes musicians get bored in their houses, just like everybody, and don’t know what to do. We all get bored now and then for lack of inspiration perhaps, so we have some spare money and a spiky lighting idea comes to our minds saying: “why don’t you get up, go to the music shop and get something “new”? The magical word “NEW” thrills us so much! And then the other one so much used today “MORE”. And there we go, to spend another 50 to 200 dollars to “try” if this is magical, but it is not, there are some differences in texture compared with the one plug-in we already have in this category, but you could nevertheless achieve this very timbre by yourself with some transformation plug-ins. You install it and play for a few hours, then get bored again because it didn’t what you wanted for it to do: inspire you!... You wait till next month and then start the process all over again.
So the reason to get something new is not always for the real usability of the plug-in but rather, because we are market-ill-consumers and we do exactly the same thing women do in fashion, but with instruments, samples, plug-ins and the sort, we buy, and buy, and buy, and store and store and store, then we uninstall, and uninstall, and uninstall, and start all over again.
If you were to reflect, but truly detached from other peoples impressions and ideas, apparent needs and advertisements promising you will quickly disappear. The advert telling you that you will sound exactly like the artist you most love will virtually vanish. Then, I’m sure you will divide very well between what you NEED from what you WANT, which are quite different things. Wants are sometimes the “needs” of the market, but not yours...
Go and see what you’ve already got, try to remember how many “SONGS” have you actually done and recorded with it, then thing how much you could do with this particular such and such instrument, and you’ll be surprised to know that the shop you are looking for, is already at home, and all you have to do is to get active, involved and creative.
Then I think creativity is something that, it’s true, can be helped, enhanced by an instrument or some new samples, absolutely true yes, but inspiration does not come from these new samples but from within you, yourself! The “raison detre” of inspiration is not an instruments but your emotions and personal experiences in life, your sensitivity, your perception of the inner and outer world!
So, my point is that if we were to use more time looking for within ourselves this music we love so much, instate of looking for into shops, we would compose a lot more music, would be much more authentic in what we do, more resources efficient, and by the end of the year we could be completely satisfied by the outcome of our creativity, despite the fact we already own the same plug-ins we had years and years ago.
Just a point to think about
*MUSIC* The most Powerful Language in the world! *INDEED*
I'd never got my hands on stuff like that ( or maybe it happened in the very beginnings, when i was a teen, just considering that junk like scrap iron).
But i've not a great feeling too with my current midi keyboard.
The older keybord i've touched in these years was a Mirage. It was on sale for about 40 Euros, but electrically not working.
I remember I had very good feelings touching that keys: smooth rounded, solid, fast, every key well close to the nearby.
But since i'd not been able to hear the sound resonse nor to have definite informations about the electrical fault, i didn't buy it.
I went back in that shop after two days with the money in my pocket, but the the Mirage had been sold.
But i've not a great feeling too with my current midi keyboard.
The older keybord i've touched in these years was a Mirage. It was on sale for about 40 Euros, but electrically not working.
I remember I had very good feelings touching that keys: smooth rounded, solid, fast, every key well close to the nearby.
But since i'd not been able to hear the sound resonse nor to have definite informations about the electrical fault, i didn't buy it.
I went back in that shop after two days with the money in my pocket, but the the Mirage had been sold.
Do you think it could replace a midi keybord in a home rig?scope4live wrote:I bought an Ensoniq Mirage the day it hit the stores. I was sold on the Santana guitar sample, that had feedback in the modulation wheel. It really pissed off my fellow EMU EII friends as I could play and load that board much quicker at a gig than my EMU's.
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kensuguro
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Lima> well, in terms of sound, the pm keys may be very close to the signal that comes out of the line out.. The funny thing is, all the mechanic clinks and clonks, sounds of stuff moving around and all, plus hearing the physical tines, etc. etc. stuff that don't really end up in the line out. These things as it turns out, add alot to the experience. And the biggest of all, I think, was the action of the keys. Also, I think these auxilary things that don't have anything to do with the end signal, is what gives the performer vital feedback that, again, makes him perform a specific way.
I think a physmod engine, coupled with a faked action modeled after the particular keyboard, would make an interesting breed. I mean, most companies have done it one way or the other with a piano. Why not do it with electromagnetic keys?
I think a physmod engine, coupled with a faked action modeled after the particular keyboard, would make an interesting breed. I mean, most companies have done it one way or the other with a piano. Why not do it with electromagnetic keys?
I heard from a NAMM source that that is an ongoing developement for a super electro-mechanical keyboard to phys/mod all of the old RMI's,etc.,into one great 76 note controller with vast amounts of action editing per preset. Since he works for Roland, and talks and acts like an NSA recruit ( in terms of secrecy ), I suspect that Roland will be releasing it next summer in Austin, TX. I pretty much have that stuff covered with my Oberheim and Scarbee samples, but I just can't seem to stop investing in more equipment. I suffer from the deadly disease known as MDS. Multiple DAW Syndrome.
Ken, It's not difficult for me to imagine what you're telling me. I totally agree with you!
That's a great idea, If someone makes it, he will do the money. I hope to see them soon in the shopskensuguro wrote: I think a physmod engine, coupled with a faked action modeled after the particular keyboard, would make an interesting breed. I mean, most companies have done it one way or the other with a piano. Why not do it with electromagnetic keys?
Welcome to the dawning of a new empire
funny thing - the american Mirage actually has an italian keyboard (made by Fatar, afaik).Cochise wrote:Do you think it could replace a midi keybord in a home rig?scope4live wrote:I bought an Ensoniq Mirage the day it hit the stores. I was sold on the Santana guitar sample, that had feedback in the modulation wheel. It really pissed off my fellow EMU EII friends as I could play and load that board much quicker at a gig than my EMU's.
The ESQ1 is said to have the same, I also liked the ASR's action, but the latter are still pretty expensive - would like to have one for the stylish green display, tho the Mirage looks cool too - almost BAUHAUS...
according to rumors the old Fatar keyboards are said to have a better action than recent models
cheers, Tom
You are correct Astro. My Oberheim was made by Viscount in Italy, also with the same heavy action that Fatar uses. It is excellant for classical ( as long as your velocity curves are correct ), and ragtime, and not too heavy for synths either. Fatar keyboards, or should I say the Italian keyboard maker, do a great job in the action department. They should right? Didn't the post Roman empire Italians invent it?