Appeal to all advanced SDK users (John Bowen, Mehdi, Wolf...

erminardi · Post by **erminardi** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:15 am

...Djmicron, MCCYRANO, John Cooper, Red Muze, Alfonso, voidar, fra77x, stardust, Celmo, AndreD, D-Mute, DAS, j9k, Aries, etc.) sorry, I can't remember all...

Hi, I'm new owner of SDK since a week

(thanks to Wolf Roth & all Creamware for this amazing opportunity...)
I've lost hours for understand the basis of this new and complex enviroment.

The attached PDFs are useful to understand the basic concept but the building tutorials are quite incomplete.
So I am "aeons" away from the complete autonomy...

Well, my proposal is: why not create a set of brief screen-captured-video-tutorials about basic/med/advanced composition of devices?
It takes almost an half hour for an expert but can resolve almost a month (or a SDK "career"... how many abandons...

) for an actual newbie (and future).
If U are timid, the voice track is not necessary, just the video could be enough to understand the "modus operandi".
No personal secrets must be unveiled (I know that a lot of programmers are quite jealous of his work

)... maybe for this reason the official SDK forum is not so "active"...
Just chapter like: how navigate inside the project, how to create a simple synth or effect, how to export, how to build the interfaace, how to create a new knob from scratch, how to create a modular module, etc.
If any of you can record one of these cahpters, in short time we can obtain a valuable & complete tutorial bank.
All with a very minimum personal engage.

I'm able with video editing, I can offer my work for the montage of the raw videoclips.

Any comments about this idea?
And Creamware can/will officially take part to this project?

ps. I wish learn SDK for my personal interest and I wish to share my future devices for free with all PlanetZ community. No business intention here...

ps2. thanks to Djmicron for his kindness & unconditional, always precious support.

Cheers.

erminardi · Post by **erminardi** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:27 am

A discussion about the best capture-software:

http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20369

AVI or MOV formats are good.
Best resolution is: 15fps, from 640x480 to 360x288 minimum, audio IMA 4:1 mono at 22.050 kHz, video compression H.263 for MOV, cinepack or indeo or MP4 or Div-X for AVI

I'm ready for audio/video support if required and project organization (for avoid double video about one chapter): erminardi(at)email.it

erminardi · Post by **erminardi** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:53 am

Done...

erminardi · Post by **erminardi** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:34 am

stardust wrote:First welcome on board of the neverending quest to unveil the secrets of the SDK.

The first big step is done with Shayne's effort to describe the first moves in SDK.
The document called: first time use .doc is what you decribe but w/o pictures.
It could be already something like a screen play for that video tut you propose.

The issue is: I guess CWA will have a claim in that.
The apparently dead documentation forum is there to separate the SDK users with NDA from the "others".
The same legal issues will apply to a tutorial I guess.

So...yes, I like the idea of a movie, but you need a sponsor, a producer, a director, a diva and a script girl,..

Thanks 4 the welcome =)
Yes I know the Shayne's tutorial (very useful) and I know that Creamware has a claim in that, but all what I mean are the same arguments that are inside the PDF manual/tutorial. The only difference is that video support is a lot better than words for one initial approach (and covers almost every different languages, not only english...)
If U (beginner) could see 1-2 minutes of video tutorial U can understand quick the basis, it's like have a friend near home that explain to you some basilar things about.

I really hope that Creamware let us to cooperate beyond the concept of PRO SDK users and NDA users. Repeat: this is about the first aproach, not for sharing some hi-level hints about "how to make a Minimax sounding filter"...
Now I will send this link to Creamware for his opinion.

Regards.

ps. I think that a little NDA qualified community could bring new "limph" about Scope system, more new customer and more wonder about the product.

Aries · Post by **Aries** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:52 am

Have emailed Creamware about the SDK Documentation Group Websites current status, not being able to login or register.

SDK newcomers need to access the SDK Documentation Group to download Shayne's excellent starter 'first time use.doc' , as Stardust said.

erminardi · Post by **erminardi** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:59 am

I'm luck, I'm registred to the SDK forum since the firs day of opening, so now, the cookie allows me access to the forum.
Maybe the problems are for new logins...

Aries · Post by **Aries** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 3:47 am

erminardi wrote:I'm luck, I'm registred to the SDK forum since the firs day of opening, so now, the cookie allows me access to the forum.
Maybe the problems are for new logins...

No, I also registered the SDK forum since the first day of opening. The problem seems to be if you have a automatic login you can login. I like stardust use a manual login and cannot login, as an error is returned. Newcomers cannot register saying that the username has been taken. Its a partial system crash.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:02 am

Erminardi, you didn't loose any hours...

understanding that stuff is a process that has to start in YOUR brain and noone can abreviate your INDIVIDUAL way of storing and making use of that information.

there may be (fake) quick rewards by mimicking someone's suggestions, but the next problem will come and the next and the next...

learning by failure could be called almost a programmer's syndrome

it's your own painful experiences that get engraved in memory, words are simply forgottten.
it often makes me wonder how few people are actually willing to accept a learning curve - eventually the latter is something completely natural.

I'm not into SDK and all that stuff, but I probably spent more hours over lines of code in front of some screen than in bed...

don't take it so hard, Tom

erminardi · Post by **erminardi** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:09 am

astroman wrote: it often makes me wonder how few people are actually willing to accept a learning curve - eventually the latter is something completely natural.

I well accept the learning curve, my wish is only to share the my skills with others (et viceversa)... if every time that you want invent something you must start from scratch... you will discover nothing!!!
Lifetime is too short for starting everything from scratch.
Why not a manual with all DSP atoms & basic dev listed and described one at one? As in the Modular PDF?
Why not a complete tutorial with right attached tutorial files?
Why not a simple video that explain the Quick Start?
SDK (NDA) lacks of these things...

Just one explicative example: imagine you, alone (no forum about it or some few incomplete things), without any knowledge about modular synthesis, in front of the Scope Modular III without the aid of the PDF manual... completely useless for the first 3 years!

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:02 pm

well, I agree on that 'lifetime too short' statement - what else could one say

yet I'm absolutely convinced that figuring it out the hard way will greatly improve your skills - it doesn't mean to start everything from scratch, afaik ther are a lot of examples from the old Neutron stuff.
It may not all make sense right in the beginning, but it will build up, your way - and patience is an almost invaluable virtue in this field.

Let me give you an example from my own (painfull) experiences.
I have a true hate-love with unix.
On one hand it's an idiotic anachronism, on the other hand I find it fascinating in an exotic way. It's clear there's an enormous power in those countless tools, well... if you're used to it - and I'm not.
I'm not even truely motivated (to learn) because (imho) I've dealt with systems that were much more sophisticated.

Yet I have to setup that f**king Apache thingy for some very specific CGI stuff and I have no way to bail out and copy an existing blueprint... outch.
So I wade through the config mess (for me), learn about user, group and access rights, hidden files and priviledges and all that sh*t.
I haven't succeeded yet (at least I got it from denying everything to execute the call... though with failure), but I get the feeling that my control over the 'nonsense' increases, I see schemes and structures, I rediscover them at different places.
Instead of considering it a waste of time (all I need is the CGI), I actually appreciate my growing knowledge about the system in general.

As everyone is different this may not apply to you - but I can assure you that I've always done it this way, with some more than 'exotic' applications and in the end I always succeeded.
Not because I'm that smart by nature, but because I didn't give up. But it pays off...

Today I met someone I loosely know in the PC shop. He has trouble with his mixed home/business PC setup. The drive letters are messed for a specifically programmed business software and because noone told him, he passed the wrong configuration instructions to the shop.
They came to no other solution, but to trash it and start all over again.

I just asked if the home and business apps were in any way depending on each other. No - strictly separated.
Well, then why don't you just buy an exchangeable drive bay...

Do you think I ever did spread some wrong information about SDK ?
I have never seen this software live or put my hands on it

Needless to mention that I never read the Modular PDF, nor did I read the SFP docs, so I once even requested VDAT details specs from CWA per mail

it's a rest of my Mac heritage - when the Mac still was 'the computer for the rest of us', a Mac user would consider it an offense to be asked to open a manual. But I have improved greatly since then... and I actually love books

the lack of documentation is rather simple - the system was never intended to be released to such a broad audience.
When you (as in 1999) aquire a developement system in the 10k Euro range you know what you're doing and you had certain engineering skills, usually...

as mentioned, don't take this too seriously - it's just the viewpoint of someone who's been through this (more or less)
use at your advantage or simply ignore it, there's no dogma intended

cheers, Tom

erminardi · Post by **erminardi** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:42 pm

[edit]

Damn, guys, share our SDK knowledge, restore the SDK forum!!!
Have a good day!

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:54 pm

Maybe you could visit Salvatore in Milano for some 'hands on' lessons in uber SDKness. I'm sure he'll only charge the cost of a nice meal & a few beers ;¬)

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:18 am

Btw erminardi, video tutorials most likely wouldn't help unless they didn't suck like nearly all video based tut's.

AFAIK, once you grasp the basics & general logic you'll be swimming in possibilities, although even then (as with synthedit for example) when you need to achieve certain things, you'll often have to go through a trial & error procedure. But doing so will only help you in the long run because often when you try to do something via 'trial & error' tests, you'll not only get to your end goal if it's even possible, but also discover other interesting things along the way !!

It's funny because even 12 months from now if you're starting to deeply understand SDK, someone will come along and say .."can we do 'this' because it'll improve your device" to which you'll reply, "well I don't know how to do that yet, but I'll have a try later" .... If you're hungry, then within 24 hours you'll probably have figured it out either by trial & error testing or by asking someone who already knows.

Lastly, I'll say that most of the guys you're asking for help are busy & if they do have time to answer questions or help you in any way, I'm quite sure that they'd feel more comfortable doing so privately rather than in public. That's not to say that they won't speak here, but rather that if you ask a few people some questions privately, i'm 99.9% sure that they'll get answered when you ask them.

erminardi · Post by **erminardi** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:20 am

I know, Salvatore is a very kind e-friend

Maybe one day. (Salvatore, don't worry, this is not a menace

)

My wish is not for me in particular, but is for all SDK community, present & future.
Look at the Synthedit forums: they share a lot of info like tips & tricks, DSP programming, graphic solutions, overall ideas... in a few years this program (enviroment) is raised to a standard.
Some people share their own special DSP/modules for money, and it's ok for a lot of work, and some people share their DSP/modules just for fun.
A lot of resources available!!!

Maybe VST is the cause of this success, but I think that Scope is a system more & more powerful than native.
The power of SDK goes beyond the (already high) power of modular, but in modular you're limited in interface design and ergonomy.
Maybe I'm actual too much enthusiastic about SDK and I'm expecting too much things from this stuff... and from the persons around...
Who knoks

Ok, anyway, don't confuse this tread as a personal "rant" beacause I'm very very happy and curious for this stuff.
My wish is only cooperate for a better documentation & active communication.

Cheers.

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:30 am

Did you sign a 'non-disclosure agreement' (NDA) erminardi ?

Admitedly, the NDA does kinda suck & that's why active public discussion about the sdk is limited. Again though, in private it's possibly another matter & there's guys who'll show you the way to the holy grail when they find it, which is nice.

erminardi · Post by **erminardi** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:40 am

Right.
I was not talking about public discussion.
I don't want go absolutely against the NDA !!!
Howewer your suggestion is right, maybe private communication could be more constructive.
Thanks.

(but before I must learn a lot of things about SDK basis...)

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:52 am

Looks like 2007 could be a good year for Italien Scope devices. We're expecting ferrari or lamborgini quality from you erminardi !!! ;¬)

erminardi · Post by **erminardi** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:41 am

In this moment, whith this poor knowledge... only fiat duna!