heya,
I'm still trying to settle in my new place in Miami.. and that involves setting up my equipment asap so I can start making music again.
I'm thinking of getting speaker stands for my Event 20/20 bas, and was wondering about a few things. The most basic question I have is the size of the stand platform. (the part you put the speaker on) How big should this be in comparison to the size of the speaker? I'm wondering because alot of the stands I see don't have big platforms (8-10 inch), where as the 20/20 bas is definitely a knotch bigger.
Then comes the size of the base of the stand. My intuition tells me that if the base is too small, I risk a flip over. But perhaps this isn't much of a problem in reality, you tell me.
This kind of relates to the flip-over risk, but what about the weight of the stand? I see lots of stands where you can add sand for weight. Is this a safety thing or more of a audiophile "add sand from the bahamas for an exotic sound" kind of thing?
Any advice appreciated. Man, I still need to treat the walls and stuff.. it's going to be a while before I have a good monitoring environment again..
Here's what I'm looking at:
http://www.americanmusical.com/item--i- ... d-210.html
it's cheap, and looks like it'll work. tell me if this is suicide.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2005-01-14 12:59 ]</font>
anyone have experience with speaker stands?
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Mr Arkadin
- Posts: 3283
- Joined: Thu May 24, 2001 4:00 pm
To avoid the 'flip-over effect' and to increase bass efficiency (i believe), i always use Blu Tack to attach the speakers to the stands. Sorry don't know the US equivalent - but it's that putty-like stuff you use to stick posters to the wall.
i also add sand (don't buy expensive audiophile sand, just make sure it's not too gritty), as this will help with your bass end too. i use lots of Quik Lok stuff, but that particular stand looks a bit lightweight (plus you can't add sand), so i'd plump for something a bit chunkier if you can.
My stands are about 2/3rd the size of the speakers depth, and very nearly the same size in width which has been fine.
Mr A
PS. i use PMC TB-1s.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mr Arkadin on 2005-01-14 13:46 ]</font>
i also add sand (don't buy expensive audiophile sand, just make sure it's not too gritty), as this will help with your bass end too. i use lots of Quik Lok stuff, but that particular stand looks a bit lightweight (plus you can't add sand), so i'd plump for something a bit chunkier if you can.
My stands are about 2/3rd the size of the speakers depth, and very nearly the same size in width which has been fine.
Mr A
PS. i use PMC TB-1s.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mr Arkadin on 2005-01-14 13:46 ]</font>
flip-over is one part of the story - oscillation is the other concern.
A 20/20 bass will easily set this construction in movement and contribute to some semi-leslie effects
imho (I'm facing the same problem btw) DIY is the best.
Sand is very good for decoupling the speakers from contact with the floor, which is likely to resonate (unless it's ground floor without cellar).
my favourite design currently is a simple wooden box, slightly larger than the speaker base, bottom closed, top open.
Filled with sand slightly below the top.
The top cover that carries the monitors 'swims' on the sand, with some extensions that stick in the sand to prevent horizontal movement.
You could use the 'sandwich' wood that serves for concrete buildings, its cheaper than the furniture quality - and can easily get an artistic surface treatment by a rotating metal cutter. I dunno the proper word, the machine is called Flex and the result accordingly 'flexwood'*, fits nicely with Flexor...
* oops, that seems to be some trademark - obviously the instructions about that strange treatment of wood used the term in a humorous way...
cheers, Tom
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: astroman on 2005-01-14 16:59 ]</font>
A 20/20 bass will easily set this construction in movement and contribute to some semi-leslie effects
imho (I'm facing the same problem btw) DIY is the best.
Sand is very good for decoupling the speakers from contact with the floor, which is likely to resonate (unless it's ground floor without cellar).
my favourite design currently is a simple wooden box, slightly larger than the speaker base, bottom closed, top open.
Filled with sand slightly below the top.
The top cover that carries the monitors 'swims' on the sand, with some extensions that stick in the sand to prevent horizontal movement.
You could use the 'sandwich' wood that serves for concrete buildings, its cheaper than the furniture quality - and can easily get an artistic surface treatment by a rotating metal cutter. I dunno the proper word, the machine is called Flex and the result accordingly 'flexwood'*, fits nicely with Flexor...
* oops, that seems to be some trademark - obviously the instructions about that strange treatment of wood used the term in a humorous way...
cheers, Tom
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: astroman on 2005-01-14 16:59 ]</font>
Hi Ken
I have a past as an audiophile. I would have to admit, that I read about more gear, than I heard. But then, I also have a past/present/future as a logical and pragmatic guy. As others have said, you want the speakers to be stable. Basicaly, you want your speakers not to move (anything but your soul). A single tube is very vulnerable to flexing, if it is not really really stiff. Sound actually is (as I see it) a very "solid" phenomenon. You know the punch in the chest feeling from big concerts. While I shure hope you don't fool around with those sound presure levels at home, you should put the big PA system's physical impact on you into perspective. It HITS you, and it does so even several meters away after spreading it's energy all over the place.
I don't remember any exact reference for this, so it may be bullshit, but to me, it makes sence. When you fire a gun, you get a big push back (don't remember the word). I believe, if the gun hard the same shape, size and weight (I know, this is very theoretical), and if it hung freely in the air (no, I didn't eat mushrooms), then the gun would fly back as far, as the bullet flies forward. Makes sense, no?
So that punch in your chest really has some stuff going in terms of energy levels. Even at lower levels, the speakers will "try" to move back and forth in speed with the waveform of the music. I believe The single major way to prevent it from doing so is ... weight. After weight, damping resonances comes into play. Related to this is awoiding stupid constructions. Constructions on 3 legs are the only ones, who can support themselves in a real life situation, and at the same time be imune to an uneven surface to stand on (don't expect your floor to be flat). Finally, there is, what I would call the "door effect". Open a door slightly. Ok, now push it where you normally do. Then push it, where it is hung to the wall - tougher right? So the longer you get away from the turning point (for the door, its hanger, for the stand, the floor) the easyer it is to put into vibration. If you stand straight up, it is easyer to make you fall, than if you have your legs spread. Just a little spreading does a lot. It is a basic thing in many martial arts forms, that you have a position with your legs spread, so that you are harder to move. The same goes for speaker stands. Straight is more vulnerable.
So to sum it up, you want your speaker to weight a ton, dampen any resonances, and have a wide foot print. If your actually screwed your speaker to the stand, it will have the maximum benefit from. It will in effect gain all the weight of the stand, and you will loose the problem with the speaker moving on top of the stand. If you screwed the stand to the floor, you would eliminate the problem of the stand moving on top of the floor. You may still be in trouble though. If the stand wibrates, you will have to prevent that (weight), if it resonates, you will have to dampen it. One way is to attach something close to the resonating area which will not resonate at the same frequency. Sand is said to help the tubes in a speaker stand from resonating. Also, you may face, that your floor is not completely stiff (this is the reason, why people can hear footsteps from the people living above them.
As always in audio, there is no ultimate solution. You will just have to decide, how far you will go to get close enough for you. Hopefully some of the stuff I wrote will be usefull to you ... atleast as inspiration for what ever choices you may make. Adding weight on the top of the speaker can also sometimes be beneficial.
If aestethics aren't important, concrete tubes may do the job just fine. They quite heavy, and you can make 3 small feet below them (little peaces of spare carpet might do the job just fine). Also make three tiny feet between the speakers and the tubes (the tinyer the surface area, the heaver will it stand (the oposite effect of using snow shoes or skies). If the tube resonates it can be from too reasons. The concrete resonating (I doubt this to be a problem) or the shape of and the volume of air in the tube (in this case, filling it with sand will do the job, but I would like to be the one ever having to move the tubes after that!).
Best wishes in your search.
disclaimer. Some of what I wrote has it's origines from conversations with people researching in acoustics, some comes from other sources, and some is my own making up things.
I have a past as an audiophile. I would have to admit, that I read about more gear, than I heard. But then, I also have a past/present/future as a logical and pragmatic guy. As others have said, you want the speakers to be stable. Basicaly, you want your speakers not to move (anything but your soul). A single tube is very vulnerable to flexing, if it is not really really stiff. Sound actually is (as I see it) a very "solid" phenomenon. You know the punch in the chest feeling from big concerts. While I shure hope you don't fool around with those sound presure levels at home, you should put the big PA system's physical impact on you into perspective. It HITS you, and it does so even several meters away after spreading it's energy all over the place.
I don't remember any exact reference for this, so it may be bullshit, but to me, it makes sence. When you fire a gun, you get a big push back (don't remember the word). I believe, if the gun hard the same shape, size and weight (I know, this is very theoretical), and if it hung freely in the air (no, I didn't eat mushrooms), then the gun would fly back as far, as the bullet flies forward. Makes sense, no?
So that punch in your chest really has some stuff going in terms of energy levels. Even at lower levels, the speakers will "try" to move back and forth in speed with the waveform of the music. I believe The single major way to prevent it from doing so is ... weight. After weight, damping resonances comes into play. Related to this is awoiding stupid constructions. Constructions on 3 legs are the only ones, who can support themselves in a real life situation, and at the same time be imune to an uneven surface to stand on (don't expect your floor to be flat). Finally, there is, what I would call the "door effect". Open a door slightly. Ok, now push it where you normally do. Then push it, where it is hung to the wall - tougher right? So the longer you get away from the turning point (for the door, its hanger, for the stand, the floor) the easyer it is to put into vibration. If you stand straight up, it is easyer to make you fall, than if you have your legs spread. Just a little spreading does a lot. It is a basic thing in many martial arts forms, that you have a position with your legs spread, so that you are harder to move. The same goes for speaker stands. Straight is more vulnerable.
So to sum it up, you want your speaker to weight a ton, dampen any resonances, and have a wide foot print. If your actually screwed your speaker to the stand, it will have the maximum benefit from. It will in effect gain all the weight of the stand, and you will loose the problem with the speaker moving on top of the stand. If you screwed the stand to the floor, you would eliminate the problem of the stand moving on top of the floor. You may still be in trouble though. If the stand wibrates, you will have to prevent that (weight), if it resonates, you will have to dampen it. One way is to attach something close to the resonating area which will not resonate at the same frequency. Sand is said to help the tubes in a speaker stand from resonating. Also, you may face, that your floor is not completely stiff (this is the reason, why people can hear footsteps from the people living above them.
As always in audio, there is no ultimate solution. You will just have to decide, how far you will go to get close enough for you. Hopefully some of the stuff I wrote will be usefull to you ... atleast as inspiration for what ever choices you may make. Adding weight on the top of the speaker can also sometimes be beneficial.
If aestethics aren't important, concrete tubes may do the job just fine. They quite heavy, and you can make 3 small feet below them (little peaces of spare carpet might do the job just fine). Also make three tiny feet between the speakers and the tubes (the tinyer the surface area, the heaver will it stand (the oposite effect of using snow shoes or skies). If the tube resonates it can be from too reasons. The concrete resonating (I doubt this to be a problem) or the shape of and the volume of air in the tube (in this case, filling it with sand will do the job, but I would like to be the one ever having to move the tubes after that!).
Best wishes in your search.
disclaimer. Some of what I wrote has it's origines from conversations with people researching in acoustics, some comes from other sources, and some is my own making up things.
-
kensuguro
- Posts: 4434
- Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: BPM 60 to somewhere around 150
- Contact:
thanx for the comments guys. I'm glad I didn't rush to any quick conclusions. I'll be doing my homework on this, and see what I can find. There's no immediate hurry to get some sound, but hopefully within a week or two.
I did get a cheap table to put my nord electro, 2 lcd, and pc keyboard. Perhaps the cheapness of the table has the potential to ruin the room acoustics much more than any speaker stand can. hehe. oh well, whatever is workable. I'll need to strike the compromise somewhere.
I did get a cheap table to put my nord electro, 2 lcd, and pc keyboard. Perhaps the cheapness of the table has the potential to ruin the room acoustics much more than any speaker stand can. hehe. oh well, whatever is workable. I'll need to strike the compromise somewhere.
........ ' Or let ME absorb all your acoustical problems '-
kensuguro
- Posts: 4434
- Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: BPM 60 to somewhere around 150
- Contact:
yeah, and absorb all my other problems as well. lol
how about something on this note?
http://www.americanmusical.com/item--i-RAX-SS36.html
This one can be filled with sand.
how about something on this note?
http://www.americanmusical.com/item--i-RAX-SS36.html
This one can be filled with sand.
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next to nothing
- Posts: 2521
- Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 4:00 pm
- Location: Bergen, Norway
except stands, if u can fit the minitors on the desk, maybe something like thid would do?
http://www.primacoustic.com/isopad.htm
http://www.primacoustic.com/isopad.htm
Ken
You do get a rather small footprint with that stand. If you can make it heavy enough, it might be ok.
Piddi
Have you tried the iso-pads? It claims to isolate the speaker from the surface beneth it. To do this effectively, it should kill all vibrations comming from the speaker cabinet toward the iso-pads. I think this means, it can not be too stiff. It may or it may not be a problem - maybe best for bass light speakers. Another thing is, that it'd better no be too "slippery", as both the speaker and the pads spread their weight over quite big surfaces. I may be too sceptic on this one, but something trickers me about it.
Not all that costs is good.
You do get a rather small footprint with that stand. If you can make it heavy enough, it might be ok.
Piddi
Have you tried the iso-pads? It claims to isolate the speaker from the surface beneth it. To do this effectively, it should kill all vibrations comming from the speaker cabinet toward the iso-pads. I think this means, it can not be too stiff. It may or it may not be a problem - maybe best for bass light speakers. Another thing is, that it'd better no be too "slippery", as both the speaker and the pads spread their weight over quite big surfaces. I may be too sceptic on this one, but something trickers me about it.
Not all that costs is good.
-
next to nothing
- Posts: 2521
- Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 4:00 pm
- Location: Bergen, Norway
hi
@immanuel:
Nope havent testes these myself, just remembered reading something about this method in a studio makeover in Sound on sound.
cant find the article right now, but heres some other links that might be usefull http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Oct04/a ... e0dac17f5d
@immanuel:
Nope havent testes these myself, just remembered reading something about this method in a studio makeover in Sound on sound.
cant find the article right now, but heres some other links that might be usefull http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Oct04/a ... e0dac17f5d
Interesting reading, but ... some wall are hard, and some are soft. Placing speakers on foam ... I really do not know what to think of this.
A note about what I wrote previously about using small feet for more weight concentration. If you are inot sticky stuff, bigger feet may have some advantages still. Too small feet of sticky stuff, will not hold the speaker tight enough. So there will be a balanced point, I guess.
A note about what I wrote previously about using small feet for more weight concentration. If you are inot sticky stuff, bigger feet may have some advantages still. Too small feet of sticky stuff, will not hold the speaker tight enough. So there will be a balanced point, I guess.