I've been running a Motu 896 for just over a year now, I've had the Scope Pro for about a month and have been TRYING to learn how to use it. I upgraded to Sonar 3.1.1 PE under the guise of VST support (for XTC mode).
Here's the basic idea behind the setup. All audio I/O is through the Motu 896 (which is connected to the Scope both through the computer and through AES/EBU cables, with the Motu being the master, the Scope being the slave) I need to record and work in 24/96 mode with between 4-8 tracks at any given time. The setup is both a studio and a live environment, so there is a need to use both the XTC mode and the SFP4.0 native software (though not at the same time) for the different applications. The scope, in general, is for all real time effects processing, and Sonar 3.1.1 is, of course, the sequencer application. I can't change to another 2496 I/O system from the 896 as it has phantom power on all ports (which the A16 does not have), and is needed by at least 2 mics at any given time.
With that as a starting point. My first problem is simply getting XTC mode to even WORK in Sonar 3. Using GonZoft's guide is less than helpful as I can't find any of the mergers or mixers he describes, and even trying to do as close to a setup as his, with SFP off and XTC mode on, every time I use the VST Adapter Wizard, I get an error stating that "XTC plug not properly installed."
I have reinstalled Scope 4 3 times already to the same effect (actually the first install allowed me to properly import them ALL, EXCEPT, when I tried to use ANY of them, I got an error in sonar saying that they wouldn't work for one reason or another...)
Is there perhaps an updated tutorial on setting up XTC? Also, if I set up Sonar to work in with ASIO drivers it reports that ONLY one sound card will be supported at a time, so I have to either turn off the Creamware Scope or the Motu in the drivers section under Options-Audio. If I get the XTC plugins to work in Sonar, will they still function if I deselect the driver in Sonar? will Sonar/scope/motu work in 24/96 mode if I don't use ASIO drivers in Sonar?
Thanks for any help in these regards.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: mikelightfoot on 2004-08-28 17:41 ]</font>
Motu 896 and Scope Professional in Sonar 3.1.1 Producer Edit
Hi,
welcome at planetz
First off - did you install SFP with the XTC part of it? If not, run the installer again and install with the XTC option. In the setup, you'll get to a page where you can delete the d:Source or so in the bottom line, select VST plugins folder for top line.
Next, you have to use ASIO drivers from SFP for XTC to be enabled. When you open Sonar then with SFP closed and XTC enabled, an invisible project will be loaded. XTC from DSP talks to VST over ASIO, so it is required.
To link both cards, a wordclock sync is required so they run at the exact same samplerate. Least jitter is EBU, which requires an additional Sync-Plate for Scope, but it can also be established over ADAT or S/P-DIF.
When you're running that cable anyways, why don't you send these mic's with phantom power over it too? Then you can Direct Monitor (ASIO2 only, it's latency free) the mic's, and record and mix it in Sonar too. Just a suggestion, don't know how it's all linked up there...
I hope this helps,
at0m.
welcome at planetz
First off - did you install SFP with the XTC part of it? If not, run the installer again and install with the XTC option. In the setup, you'll get to a page where you can delete the d:Source or so in the bottom line, select VST plugins folder for top line.
Next, you have to use ASIO drivers from SFP for XTC to be enabled. When you open Sonar then with SFP closed and XTC enabled, an invisible project will be loaded. XTC from DSP talks to VST over ASIO, so it is required.
To link both cards, a wordclock sync is required so they run at the exact same samplerate. Least jitter is EBU, which requires an additional Sync-Plate for Scope, but it can also be established over ADAT or S/P-DIF.
When you're running that cable anyways, why don't you send these mic's with phantom power over it too? Then you can Direct Monitor (ASIO2 only, it's latency free) the mic's, and record and mix it in Sonar too. Just a suggestion, don't know how it's all linked up there...
I hope this helps,
at0m.
more has been done with less
https://soundcloud.com/at0m-studio
https://soundcloud.com/at0m-studio
-
mikelightfoot
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 4:00 pm
Thanks for your fast response.
As far as I can tell, in Scope Platform 4.0 there's no option to enable or disable XTC (unless it's just in selecting the plug-ins directly, which I have done). I have the Motu set on its own internal clock, and the Scope is slaved to that, so that shouldn't be a problem.
About ASIO, is it possible to run Sonar using XTC without having to select ASIO drivers (and just have the Scope do all ASIO calculations internally? The tutorial at the end of GonZoft talking about Wave drivers seems to suggest this)? If I have to select the ASIO drivers in Sonar, and then select the Motu's drivers, (thus disabling Scope In and Outs) will the XTC plugins for the Scope still work?
And finally, is ASIO the only true 24/96 system, or does editing in another format of audio allow for 24/96?
As far as I can tell, in Scope Platform 4.0 there's no option to enable or disable XTC (unless it's just in selecting the plug-ins directly, which I have done). I have the Motu set on its own internal clock, and the Scope is slaved to that, so that shouldn't be a problem.
About ASIO, is it possible to run Sonar using XTC without having to select ASIO drivers (and just have the Scope do all ASIO calculations internally? The tutorial at the end of GonZoft talking about Wave drivers seems to suggest this)? If I have to select the ASIO drivers in Sonar, and then select the Motu's drivers, (thus disabling Scope In and Outs) will the XTC plugins for the Scope still work?
And finally, is ASIO the only true 24/96 system, or does editing in another format of audio allow for 24/96?
The Wav drivers in the experimental XTC project are for use with media players, recorders etc. ASIO drivers are required to be loaded all the time when XTC plugins are in use. All the communication uses the ASIO drivers. Even if you would use a program like Plogue to keep ASIO active, Sonar still won't have IO for your plugins to be inserted in a track.
You can always run SFP (instead of XTC) and use the MOTU driver as your ASIO driver in Sonar. Wire the 896 to your Creamware card via 2 toslink (optical) cables and use ADAT to communicate between the 2. CueMix (I believe that's Motu's app) will allow you to patch freely to and from SFP both from the physical 896 i/o and from the ASIO i/o. This isn't the same as using vst plugins obviously but it does avoid having to worry about delay compensation issues within your sequencer, the only caveat is that you'll have to plan routing carefully if you MUST have an sfp effect inserted as a specific point in the mix. Oh, and in 96khz you'll only get 4 in 4 out over adat (assuming the 896 supports s/mux for adat, I suspect it does though).
Just a thought...
Just a thought...
Last edited by valis on Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mikelightfoot
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 4:00 pm
at0m|c: thanks for the information. It has cleared up a few questions.
valis: the 896 does not support s/mux. I don't even think the 896HD supports s/mux. There's no way to send 96khz sound via ADAT I/O on the Motu 896. Oh, and thanks for sticking up for me.
garyb: it's not useful to tell someone that their almost $2000 purchase is "not that great." 1) the individual may already be kicking themselves over a crappy purchase, or 2) they may have specific needs only that purchase satisfies. In this case, it's a bit of both. The Motu has performed beautifully for EVERYTHING we've needed it for until we installed the Scope. And considering the sheer problems I've seen a LOT of people on these forums have (and the problems I've run across), and the fact that the Motu and MANY other systems I've come across haven't had hardly the number of problems that the Scope seems to have, it's a mystery to me there aren't more people blasting CWA for their products. Now don't get me wrong, I know there're a LOT of issues with these setups, and seeing as how this is the ONLY DSP setup I've ever tried anything with, it's understandable, AND what little I have seen the Scope do has been incredible.
back to Valis: I can't even get CueMix to load. I'll have to contact Motu about that tomorrow.
I'm currently looking at the A16 and have that in between the Motu 896 and the Scope (all audio In goes to the Motu, then out from the Motu to the A16, then into the Scope), but as it is a costly solution, it might not be the preferred one. Also would that cause noticeable latency? (if any?)
One more thing that I should have cleared up to begin with. this is not Mike - this is his son. I'm doing the computer work and studio setup, etc. for him.
valis: the 896 does not support s/mux. I don't even think the 896HD supports s/mux. There's no way to send 96khz sound via ADAT I/O on the Motu 896. Oh, and thanks for sticking up for me.
garyb: it's not useful to tell someone that their almost $2000 purchase is "not that great." 1) the individual may already be kicking themselves over a crappy purchase, or 2) they may have specific needs only that purchase satisfies. In this case, it's a bit of both. The Motu has performed beautifully for EVERYTHING we've needed it for until we installed the Scope. And considering the sheer problems I've seen a LOT of people on these forums have (and the problems I've run across), and the fact that the Motu and MANY other systems I've come across haven't had hardly the number of problems that the Scope seems to have, it's a mystery to me there aren't more people blasting CWA for their products. Now don't get me wrong, I know there're a LOT of issues with these setups, and seeing as how this is the ONLY DSP setup I've ever tried anything with, it's understandable, AND what little I have seen the Scope do has been incredible.
back to Valis: I can't even get CueMix to load. I'll have to contact Motu about that tomorrow.
I'm currently looking at the A16 and have that in between the Motu 896 and the Scope (all audio In goes to the Motu, then out from the Motu to the A16, then into the Scope), but as it is a costly solution, it might not be the preferred one. Also would that cause noticeable latency? (if any?)
One more thing that I should have cleared up to begin with. this is not Mike - this is his son. I'm doing the computer work and studio setup, etc. for him.
the Motu supports s/mux according to this page
I'd suggest to put the scope into a separate computer as an external FX unit - nothing big, a used PIII will do the trick. Just take care at the chipset: BX or Intel 815 are good choices.
There are lots of nice (now considered outdated) 19" servers of this category on eBay, I guess no more than 200 bucks.
This will spare you the XTC setup and you have a clean system that won't cause any problems at all.
The troubles mentioned frequently with scope setups are mostly due to super-hyper P4 boards targeted at gamers and overclockers, or with sequencer software, sometimes overlapping with XP and mobo issues.
In other words: nothing that's inherent in the scope system itself.
So you could s/mux 4 96k Adat channels over to the Scope pro and route back in realtime, well almost. At 98k you should experience a 0.24 ms delay for the roundtrip (I had 20 samples in a similiar setup, equiv. to 0.5 ms at 48k).
The A16 as you suggested won't help at all because you'd still have the 'only one' Asio restriction.
cheers, Tom
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: astroman on 2004-08-29 15:25 ]</font>
I'd suggest to put the scope into a separate computer as an external FX unit - nothing big, a used PIII will do the trick. Just take care at the chipset: BX or Intel 815 are good choices.
There are lots of nice (now considered outdated) 19" servers of this category on eBay, I guess no more than 200 bucks.
This will spare you the XTC setup and you have a clean system that won't cause any problems at all.
The troubles mentioned frequently with scope setups are mostly due to super-hyper P4 boards targeted at gamers and overclockers, or with sequencer software, sometimes overlapping with XP and mobo issues.
In other words: nothing that's inherent in the scope system itself.
So you could s/mux 4 96k Adat channels over to the Scope pro and route back in realtime, well almost. At 98k you should experience a 0.24 ms delay for the roundtrip (I had 20 samples in a similiar setup, equiv. to 0.5 ms at 48k).
The A16 as you suggested won't help at all because you'd still have the 'only one' Asio restriction.
cheers, Tom
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: astroman on 2004-08-29 15:25 ]</font>
This is Mike's son, just in case anyone's wondering.. damn me for being too lazy to create an account for myself before now. ;-p
astroman: that page is for the 896HD... I've had that problem MANY times before, because apparently Motu's website no longer lists or supports the 896 (which is the predecessor to the 896HD).
As for the A16 Ultra... perhaps I should clear it up a bit. I would be dumbing down the 896 further and have it nearly disconnected from the computer (its only connection is required to set up the 896 unit). All audio would go into the 896 and then out to the A16, then through to the Scope, thereby allowing me to have Sonar dealing SOLELY with the Scope, rather than hving to deal with the Motu AND the Scope in ASIO... I'd think that that would work, but as I've yet to do it, I just don't know.
Back onto the XTC issue (just want to get it running to see how it can be implemented into the system.), is there an updated tutorial with current modules for the Scope Platform 4 for setting up XTC in Windows? The one by GonZoft is VERY old and I can't find several of the modules he describes.
astroman: that page is for the 896HD... I've had that problem MANY times before, because apparently Motu's website no longer lists or supports the 896 (which is the predecessor to the 896HD).
As for the A16 Ultra... perhaps I should clear it up a bit. I would be dumbing down the 896 further and have it nearly disconnected from the computer (its only connection is required to set up the 896 unit). All audio would go into the 896 and then out to the A16, then through to the Scope, thereby allowing me to have Sonar dealing SOLELY with the Scope, rather than hving to deal with the Motu AND the Scope in ASIO... I'd think that that would work, but as I've yet to do it, I just don't know.
Back onto the XTC issue (just want to get it running to see how it can be implemented into the system.), is there an updated tutorial with current modules for the Scope Platform 4 for setting up XTC in Windows? The one by GonZoft is VERY old and I can't find several of the modules he describes.
not trying to insult anyone or suggest that your $2000 item is junk. what i was saying is that your scope card and an ad/da box could handle the whole job, probably you could sell the motu and replace it with an ad/da with adat light pipe without losing much money, have an easier setup to use and that the motu wasn't so especially spectacular that you would lose any quality.On 2004-08-29 13:47, mikelightfoot wrote:
garyb: it's not useful to tell someone that their almost $2000 purchase is "not that great." 1) the individual may already be kicking themselves over a crappy purchase, or 2) they may have specific needs only that purchase satisfies. In this case, it's a bit of both. The Motu has performed beautifully for EVERYTHING we've needed it for until we installed the Scope. And considering the sheer problems I've seen a LOT of people on these forums have (and the problems I've run across), and the fact that the Motu and MANY other systems I've come across haven't had hardly the number of problems that the Scope seems to have, it's a mystery to me there aren't more people blasting CWA for their products. Now don't get me wrong, I know there're a LOT of issues with these setups, and seeing as how this is the ONLY DSP setup I've ever tried anything with, it's understandable, AND what little I have seen the Scope do has been incredible.
it's too bad to have stuff that doesn't quite work together, but the problem can be solved in an easier or harder way.....
if you need help setting things up, there'll be plenty of info available around here...
-gary
garyb: It's okay.. sorry I got touchy over it. WAY too much money has already been spent on this whole setup, and just hearing the product is crap kinda stings. - heh...
I've looked at the A16 Ultra, and aside from the TOTAL lack of Phantom Power on ANY ins, it's a nice setup (very cheap versus the Motu). Considering the mics we're using, yes we NEED phantom power.
a little OT, but why aren't these forums hosted on creamware.com? or more specifically, why aren't there some serious user forums on creamware.com?
I've looked at the A16 Ultra, and aside from the TOTAL lack of Phantom Power on ANY ins, it's a nice setup (very cheap versus the Motu). Considering the mics we're using, yes we NEED phantom power.
a little OT, but why aren't these forums hosted on creamware.com? or more specifically, why aren't there some serious user forums on creamware.com?
there were. also there were trolls. cwa is a very small company. i don't think they had the manpower or patience to wade through the caca. kids expecting a soundblaster experience with computers that were unworthy and yet thinking that they knew all about all would become quite a problem......
one solution for mic pres(the a16 and most other ad/das have none), would be an older recording board. real recording boards can be had for pennies on the dollar. i have seen ramsa wr24s for $500 recently. the wr series was about $2-3000 in 1985 or so depending on the model so you know the mic pres are no joke....compared to the motu a MAJOR step up in quality, for less money so probably an even trade. just a thought and example. the mixer might come in handy as well. i use my old soundcraft 1600(to big for most but i got it for 2 dx7s...) for it's patch bay and control room monitor system as well as direct outs from the mic pres.
another possibilty might be something like the behriger ad8000. i know that that stuff is crap, but still it has 8(you'd need two units for 16 channels) good mic pres and balaced/inbalaced +4 1/4" line i/o on light pipe. the ad/da in not as good as the motu(maybe), but the pres aren't much worse either. the fact that they are $200 each would leave you money for something like a rnp http://www.fmraudio.com/rnp/ or another quality mic pre that you could connect directly to the scope analog in for things like vocal tracks..
or maybe you don't need 16 mic pres at a time...
in that case, you could just get the a16 or an rme or another higher quality converter and just start with one nice mic pre. you could always add other pres later(if you are concerned with the art of recording....).
there are definite possiblities to get most of your investment back as people will buy the motu without even thinking these days.(they're popular
)
using two computers is not crazy either. the scope box(you could get a P3 machine with an 815 or bx series intel based motherboard for free or almost ) would make an awesome synth/effects box with 16 digital i/os. you really can't lose, it's just a matter of deciding what direction to move in.....
let us know...(how it goes)
*edit*
don't feel bad about the money you have spent. you posses the tools required to make a grammy winner for a fraction of the cost of just 5-10 years ago(HUNDREDS of thousands cheaper). you'll get it going, there are potential problems because the system is very complex. but soon, you'll be able to integrate ALL internal and external devices, which is cool. the sfp environment is virtual reality. it behaves EXACTLY like hardware(well, close enough)...also, it WILL work right(as far as computers go) if it is in the proper environment. considering the cost of the soundcard and the function it fulfills, that shouldn't be an issue...i make money in my studio with it constantly and it is reliable, so take your time, it'll be worth it...
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: garyb on 2004-08-29 16:37 ]</font>
one solution for mic pres(the a16 and most other ad/das have none), would be an older recording board. real recording boards can be had for pennies on the dollar. i have seen ramsa wr24s for $500 recently. the wr series was about $2-3000 in 1985 or so depending on the model so you know the mic pres are no joke....compared to the motu a MAJOR step up in quality, for less money so probably an even trade. just a thought and example. the mixer might come in handy as well. i use my old soundcraft 1600(to big for most but i got it for 2 dx7s...) for it's patch bay and control room monitor system as well as direct outs from the mic pres.
another possibilty might be something like the behriger ad8000. i know that that stuff is crap, but still it has 8(you'd need two units for 16 channels) good mic pres and balaced/inbalaced +4 1/4" line i/o on light pipe. the ad/da in not as good as the motu(maybe), but the pres aren't much worse either. the fact that they are $200 each would leave you money for something like a rnp http://www.fmraudio.com/rnp/ or another quality mic pre that you could connect directly to the scope analog in for things like vocal tracks..
or maybe you don't need 16 mic pres at a time...
in that case, you could just get the a16 or an rme or another higher quality converter and just start with one nice mic pre. you could always add other pres later(if you are concerned with the art of recording....).
there are definite possiblities to get most of your investment back as people will buy the motu without even thinking these days.(they're popular
)using two computers is not crazy either. the scope box(you could get a P3 machine with an 815 or bx series intel based motherboard for free or almost
) would make an awesome synth/effects box with 16 digital i/os. you really can't lose, it's just a matter of deciding what direction to move in..... let us know...(how it goes)
*edit*
don't feel bad about the money you have spent. you posses the tools required to make a grammy winner for a fraction of the cost of just 5-10 years ago(HUNDREDS of thousands cheaper). you'll get it going, there are potential problems because the system is very complex. but soon, you'll be able to integrate ALL internal and external devices, which is cool. the sfp environment is virtual reality. it behaves EXACTLY like hardware(well, close enough)...also, it WILL work right(as far as computers go) if it is in the proper environment. considering the cost of the soundcard and the function it fulfills, that shouldn't be an issue...i make money in my studio with it constantly and it is reliable, so take your time, it'll be worth it...
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: garyb on 2004-08-29 16:37 ]</font>
Well, after much deliberation with my father, it looks like we're going to get the A16 Ultra... we may even get rid of the Motu 896 if we can find a cheap source of phantom power for the 2+ mics we've got (and are going to get). Any suggestions on a simple, clean, in-line phantom power setup? Perhaps even a rack-mounted setup?
I do appreciate all the help - even if we do have to spend more money on this setup.
I do appreciate all the help - even if we do have to spend more money on this setup.
the rnp i suggested would be a great choice, but there are many good pres w/ phantom from many companies such as presonus,art and many others. most work very well....you do need a preamp as well as phantom, but 99% of mic pres have phantom power. there are inline phantom supplies, but the a16(and most ad/das)is looking for line level, so a preamp is what is required to get the proper signal level for the best sound.......
btw-getting xtc mode to work w/ sonar is kinda tricky. sonar's vst implementation is sorta patchy(they didn't really want to do it. those guys are really into directx). i have a post here about getting it to work somewhere and it was written a little while ago, but i think the gist is that you must enable xtc mode and then close sfp before trying to enable the vst plugins......
btw-getting xtc mode to work w/ sonar is kinda tricky. sonar's vst implementation is sorta patchy(they didn't really want to do it. those guys are really into directx). i have a post here about getting it to work somewhere and it was written a little while ago, but i think the gist is that you must enable xtc mode and then close sfp before trying to enable the vst plugins......
hmmm...
i have only used sonar in xtc mode once. this is all i know....
http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... 1&forum=32
i have only used sonar in xtc mode once. this is all i know....
http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... 1&forum=32