In the Countryside by Christmas

[Nestor]

Quite anusual... I am in the countryside right now... surrounded by all sort of animals... One chick is laying an egg in front of me, and I can't but to be amazed. We are so far from nature...

There are two ships to be killed for today is the usual way here, in Chile. People is getting ready of a big "asado", (barbacue). Everybody is getting ready for tonight, there are people comming from all around and they are getting some dry wood to start the fire... it must be ready for about 6:30, and slowly start doing the row meat into a fantastic "asado".

It is nevertheless quite sad to hear the incredible disperate noises of those animals, that I'm sure, know very well, this is their last day on earth... If it was my will, I will definitely not have an "asado". I like meat, but when you are in front of them, well... things change a bit...

The sun is magnificent, very strong, but we have to be carefull because there are lots of bad radiations in this Country. Unfortunately, the Ozone problem si a big, BIG one here... It is dangerous to expose yourself to the sun, without having a strong protection of about 20. This is what I'm using right now.

There is a child playing in front of me, with a cane, he's having fun like in the old times... it's amazing... I insist, we are so far from nature... It seems strange to comeback this way... and wonderful too

The smels are so nice, there are platy of birds singing and flying here and there... the peace is deep in here...

Nevertheless, there IS a computere and here I am... sort of informing my community he he... about how thigs are going...

I guess that the meaning of Christmas, in its truly depth, is the conmemoration of an Spiritual event, happend lont time ago, but in every country this seems to have gone to a completely different sense... I mean, most of it has been transformed into an huge economical thing. The interest is most of all, commercial.

I have been for many years in Europe, and can remember clearly, that every country had its own way of understanding it.

Here, I am in an aboriginal area, there still are many Mapuche people. Mapuche means: Mapu (people) che (from the earth), so Mapuche means people from the earth. Here there is a misxture of cultures and Christmas has a quite unusual mixture of things... in a side, there is sort of Christial background, in the other side, there is sort of a Magical indian background. You have to be careful not to hart anybody, just accept what they do, and what they offer you, period... if not you're sure to hart them... cos these people is very sensitive and close to nature. They are used to accept presents as they are, this is a costum you need to understand. They will kill animals in front of you, and you have to be there... whatching... and of course, cannot desagree about it, cos its an important part of the tradition. There is not evil or good in it, I guess it is a matter of understanding, that's it.

Spices are getting ready for the different preparations, lots and lots of red wine, BTW, fantastic quality, for those who, like me, love red wine to go with meat.

ups...............

Well, I've been called to put one of the ships into the pickup, poor animal... I'm not use to it. People here, is used to it and they do this things everyday... for me it is sort of a mistret, or as if I was punishing the animal... I hate it!

This is a cool place, I'm writing in this computer, which is quite bad by the way... he he... and just in front of a big window to the countryside.

Well guys... I wish you all today, a Merry Christmas. Have a nice time with yours...

If you happend to have any conflicts with anybody, just try out your best, and give up with this strugle, make of it an opportunity to sort out any differences you can have. Lets start it anew, like you would do with a new black book, no resetiments, no anger, there is far too much in the world already. Let have a nice time and may forgivness be your choice.

Good Luck Z people.

[next to nothing]

i hope thats "sheeps" beeing killed, not entire ships... that would b mean to the passengers!! (and a strange tradition)

[braincell]

I find sheep delicious.

[hubird]

and I like cheap

[Nestor]

Ok guys, I didn’t eat a cheap sheep in a ship…

(sorry for the “little” mistake ship-sheep)

Well, I have to say the “asado” was absolutely magnificent, amazing… They put it into a long piece of metal, and slowly the meat starts getting barbecued… now and then, a grandma came to through a miraculous pinch of salt… I say miraculous, because this meat had nothing but salt and the taste was ummmm so delicious!

You’re right Brain, you would have been delighted as well with this meat.

While we were barbecuing the sheep meat, everybody would drink some white beer. To be honest, quite bad quality beer to my taste, very soft... nevertheless nice to go with the strong fire, cos you get to hot while moving the stick of metal in continuous circles with your hands… its fun nevertheless.

Then at table, we eat with some very good exportation wine, called “Gato Exportación”, recommended for red meat!

[Kenf]

Hi Nestor
You raised something of interest by mentioned the sheep being put in the pickup and then being taken off for slaughter. In Europe we hide behind the killing of all animals. Most animals are badly treated in life and in slaughter, many sheep are transported for days with no water, rest or food, many die during these trips, there lives are worth a few euros each, so it is cheaper to let them die rather than care for them.
I feel it is better to kill our animals when we need to eat them rather than turn them into lifeless machines and torture them. We must respect our environment and everything that lives in it otherwise we will die.
Regards
Kenf

[Nestor]

I trully loved your words Kenf! I can't but agree with you.

You know what? I like meat, and I like it a lot, but killing the animal yourself, makes change your mind... If I were to kill animals to eat myself, it would for sure be the end of meat etting for me.

I don't mind to go fishing and then eat the fish, doing it myself, but even those little animals makes me worry.

Unfortunately, life is made in a form which evertying eats everything. If you think about animals, they all eat each other, plats, in a sense, nurrishes from each other, and human beings, even if we don't eat human's flesh, we actually exploit others to such an extent that it is similar to eating each other...

I have been rised in Argentina, and there people eat meat "everyday" of the year. For my father, not eating meat was not eating as he used to say... You go to the supermarket or the grocery, and you don't know about animals, what you get is a pound of this and a pound of that... then it is put into some paper and goes into a plastic bag. Living all the time in big cities, you become unconscious of animals and wild life, and meat means food, period. To kill the animal or seen it being killed, is far different from a plastic bag, all your feelings about the sense of life comes up, you can't help. Not a least, if you are a little bit sensitive about others lifes, and when I mean others, I includ animals too.

In the other side, those living in the countryside, get so accostumed killing animals to get some meat, that they lose sensitivity and don't feel a single remorse about it.

My position, if you like, would be to eat very little meat, just the needed to be sound and save in your helth, but would like for a much better life for all those animals. Natural life in the countriside, eating what they want, when they want, and having their insticts in contact with the Big Nature.

I can't but hating any modified food, an particularly hate the likes of Mc****ls. They use a modified soft of caw, which has "NO LEGS", "NO FUR", "NO EYES". It's head is very small, it never moves for the rest of its life and is nurrished through a tuve that passes through its stomach. Perfect bussines... much more meat much less work to do. They can kill this animal in place, it doesn't move at all in all his life, and the quantity of meat is enormous. The Gouvernment prohivited them to use the word "CATTLE", because they considered this no longer a cattle. But they ansered that "cattle" comes from lating word RES meaning "thing", so they are perfectly right selling hamburgers of "thing". Absolutely and totally disgusting!!!

Then another comapany we all know, selling chiken... Q*******F**C*****, in the same way have been called by the authorities asking them to please stop calling their food chiken, because it is not. Again, we have the same thing... they have done a genetical modification of chiken and instead of the well known animal, we've got sort of a ball of meat... It has no beak, not legs, no feather, and it is nurrished through a tuve going to its stomach Soooo cruel... and then we complain when nature crushes our dirty little lifes...) Absolutely disgusting!!! Then... even if I was diying, I promise you, I woun't eat such rubbish, not even diying...

This kind of things some times, make me lose the confidence that this world will one day, be at peace, and that we all are going to get a better future... It is very difficult in this way. Which will be the consequences of all these disgusting kind of genetically modified food? What will be the result for us?: Cancer, Alzheimer, new uncontrolable infections like the "Mad Caw" but hapenning in humans? This is dangerous.

[darkrezin]

I used to eat meat (although I was not a fanatical meat-eater) but I changed my mind after the BSE/CJD (mad cow disease) stuff here in the UK, then followed by the foot-and-mouth disease, where millions of animals were burned in ditches because it was cheaper than vaccinating them against the disease.

There are many other reasons why I don't touch meat now, but those were the main triggers. There is something truly disgusting in the relentless pursuit of maximum profit in farming (and in the rest of the economy of course).

peace

[Kenf]

Thanks for the wise words... I agree with you. I do not eat meat but it is difficult to argue against those who kill to live, most of the world has no choice, in the west we do. I know mankind was designed to eat animals in fact everything, but when death is on a conveyor belt, I can't understand that. Mankind likes to put itself above all but we are the cruellest animal on this planet and by doing this we will destroy ourselves.
I beleive in compassion to everything, I try to live by that the best I can.
Peace Love and Understanding

[garyb]

nice thread.

[astroman]

On 2003-12-27 09:02, dArKr3zIn wrote:
... but I changed my mind after the BSE/CJD (mad cow disease) stuff here in the UK, ...

there's really something we can learn from the BSE experience, much deeper than just avoid meat in question, but do we ?

The source of BSE has never been fully published, (afaik) there have been significant attempts to hide it instead.
BSE started in areas where cattle was treated against fly bites specially on the back of the animals.
Farmers have been rubbing in a substance to keep flies away and obviously it's that stuff (applied close to the spine) that caused the production of the infectuous proteine.

In other words: a drug was applied without beeing able to expect or control side effects.
It's a general lack of our scientific/health system of source and direct reaction.
It fails immediately if things get only a little more complicated with more than one stage of 'consequences'.

We really should stop producing industry style food. Even if one doesn't care for animals at all it is economical nonsense.
Reduced production costs finally lead to an increased (unhealthy) consumption which affect about one third of the western population (at least in germany).
Those people are in constant medical treatment costing a fortune and driving wages high due to increased social security fees combined with decreased productivity.
Fat basses are ok, fat a**es suck

Now cosider prices for meat rise up to 300% which enables farmers to make the same profit with a smaller number (or 'lighter') animals, kept under better conditions.
People spend exactly the same amount of cash but receive a smaller piece of meat, which is about the size suggested by physicians.
The follow up costs of the 'metabolic syndrome' would almost vanish.
Is that too complicated ? Or are human brains already degenerated too much ?

Well, I haven't bought a piece of beef, pig or chicken from supermarket for decades.
One reason is that I don't want to support that 'industry' and the other is that the quality is just horrible.
I'm not against meat at all and also prefered lamb (occasionally), but since BSE the quality of that stuff has dropped significantly (industries react fast).

People feel more safe with lamb now, simply ignoring the fact that the 'Scrapy' (?) disease (the sheep equivalent of BSE) is known even longer

bon appetit, Tom

[borg]

the last two weeks i was really ill. couldn't hardly get out of bed. i felt really miserable! flu, nearly had bronchial pneumonia. some essential anti bodies where missing in my blood...
i hadn't eaten meat for 8 1/2 years, until a few days ago i ate my grandmothers soup based on a meat broth, and the day after a small piece of steak. two days later i feel much better and stronger.
i think i have always been a 'too-lazy-vegetarian' or just not educated/motivated enough.

i don't know whether the positive turn my health has taken is due to the eating of meat, but it's tempting to think so. in fact the piece of meat tasted real good, and so far the only physical drawback is some funny taste in my mouth. so, it looks like my vegetarian days are over.
however, i can't help but feel worried about where to get good quality food in our western world at a fair price. over the years lots of bad things happened, and i used many of them to justify my choice not to eat meat... you guys named a few, here in belgium we also had 'dioxine chickens' and 'bird's plague' laying down millions of poultry, pigs plague,...

like tom said, we need to be much more conscious about what we eat. it's only us customers that can change the industry, by not buying low quality/dodgy meat. unfortunately, money is an important factor. lots of people have too little of it, and the ones that have too much, often do so, exactly because they do not care for the welfare of all living beings.

[ChrisWerner]

Hmmmmm, I love a good piece of meat with a good sauce and fine vegetable, salat and
baked potatos or pasta aside.
I have a meat ranking list and it is sorted on what is hooked between your teeth after the meal. First it´s pig than beef, followed by lamb and finaly reindeer.

I would butcher the animals by myself if I had a farm. I have no problems with it like fresh fished fish.
That is deep in our all history, humans start very early to keep beasts of burden. Beside this I simply like the taste.

But as Tom mentioned before I don´t buy my meat in the supermarket. I buy it from a farm in my town, no additves only natural food for the animals, no big transports etc.
But of course there is the higher price and that´s lead me to bad thoughts.
At the moment more and more firms in germany goes bankrupt and day by day we have more and more unemployed people here. They can´t afford the good natural food and of course they can´t feed a whole family with it.
So, if you have less money in your purse you are forced to buy this mass-production food. You are forced to eat food with many additives. That makes me sad.

Another thingie.
Once I´ve seen a reportage about a migratory tribe, they live only out in the nature with their flocks and to a special moment they kill one of their sheeps for a celebration.
They kill the sheep and skin it.
Then they dig a deep hole put the cleaned and spiced meat back into the skin, cord it up, put it into the hole and cover it with hot stones. After some time they dig out the whole thing and, voila. That was absolute interesting to see.

Good that you feel better Andy and thank you Nestor for another nice report from you.

We can do nearly everthing in this world but we have to hold a constant balance, don´t take too much without giving something back.
I like the proverb, if you sent out a smile you will get it back someday.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ChrisWerner on 2003-12-27 18:22 ]</font>

[astroman]

On 2003-12-27 17:35, borg wrote:
... i hadn't eaten meat for 8 1/2 years, until a few days ago i ate my grandmothers soup based on a meat broth, and the day after a small piece of steak. two days later i feel much better and stronger.

great your back 'on track' again
one can always rely on grandma's recipes... your conclusion is probably in the right direction, as your body needs proteines in that situation. Antibodies are built from that.

...in fact the piece of meat tasted real good, ...

that's the way your body indicates what's required isn't it great ?

so, it looks like my vegetarian days are over.

don't bother. I never understood people respecting animals more than plants.
Those feel as much as any being - we only lack the receptors to be aware of it.

... unfortunately, money is an important factor. lots of people have too little of it, ...

it is not, as I've calculated above - but that would require some conciousness.
On the other hand one could make it easier for people by adding a 'health care fee' on meat

cheers, Tom

[Nestor]

I’ve got to know a man called José Calvo in Spain, he’s a very eccentric person, but not in a bad way, he’s just too special for the rest of the world and people can hardly understand his ways… I’m not sure I did either but I respected him much. I had to do a job for him in times I would help myself doing some extra jobs like painting houses, etc.

José is a fine art painter; he would paint some rather strange but tremendously appealing paintings, he also happens to do lots of other interesting things like: ergonomics for chain market products, engineering, motorcycle mechanics, mathematics, macroeconomics and statistics. He would also like to do experiments with some scientists friends, about extra sensorial things.

About 1985-6, he did an interesting experiment with a number of plants, sticking to them some detectors connected to a machine similar that will render sort of an electroencephalogram of each plant, per day. They divided themselves into different characters, to treat those plants in different ways. One of them would go into the room, always angry, insulting, nervous, etc., with as much bad vibrations as possible, they did it for real, not like acting, but rather feeling it. Then there was another that would always be happy, caressing plants touching them smoothly, speaking beautiful words and treating them very well, giving them water etc.

The curious thing is that plants would react hysterically when the “bad” would come into the room, wile they would write very soft patterns when the “gentle” one came it. This amazed them much, and went to do several experiments like giving not water to one and a lot to the other, etc., etc., etc., the matter is that, amazingly, all plants and the patterns they write through the sensors, would make sense, as if plants would truly feel in a similar way than humans do.

They finally cut one of the plants into pieces, with a scissor, and all plants send its maximum velocity patterns.

You are totally right Tom, according to this experience and many others, plants DO feel and are sensitive beings.

***

MEAT:
I would certainly love to be able to eat pure food, but this is very difficult… It is very expensive, and not just that… the problem right now is that there is a rising, important awareness about the fact that modified food is dangerous an negative for our organism, so all rather rich people, that can afford it, are buying this food and there is none left for those with little money to get some. Another big problem here, in Chile, is that our best food is sent to Europa and USA, I can’t understand this stupid mentality… they should do exactly the opposite. But this has happened since times of Colon, so… no surprise.

All dairy products in supermarkets sincerely, sucks! What a bad quality!

I better stop, and go get something to eat… nevertheless, I have to keep going… but man, I would like a different world for everybody.

[Nestor]

Another important thing I would like to share with you guys:

Food is not just what you see, and what is measurable by the scientific eye… not at all… Science knows some parameters, but there is a parameters that some scientists still don’t accept, and this the one of ENERGY.

I’m not talking about measurable, visible energy, but VITALITY. There is a big division today in scientific realms because of this, some scientists agree and others are against. This is far too complicated for me to even try to explain anything; it can be explained a bit through Quantum Mathematics and the Fourth Dimension nevertheless. I understand the concept, but am unable to go into such a deep thing mathematically speaking:

Vitality is something essential to life and physical food is not everything… Energy is divided into two main areas, the physical, measurable one, and the metaphysical or non-measurable energy. It is said by some scientists that we absorb energy through the air, through what we eat and through the impressions we receive in our brain.

I’m sure that NATURAL things are very energetic, while modified things are, not only less powerful in non measurable energy, but bring to our organism a DIFFERENT energy which is not given by nature, so “a non intelligent energy”.

Just a question which makes me sick: why the hell scientists DO NOT understand such a simple principle as the one that dictates: “NATURE CANNOT BE CORRECTED! NATURE MUST BE EMULATED!” Haven’t we had enough problems with our modifications? Our planet is destroyed by all sorts of external agents and all sort of terrible exploitation, and we don’t stop it yet?


_________________
Music is the most Powerful Language in the world! *INDEED*

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Nestor on 2003-12-27 22:17 ]</font>

[Kenf]

Hi Astroman
I think there is a fundamental difference between plants and animals but maybe one day I will be proved wrong. I have never been able to understand what the difference between man and animals is? Surely we should eat each other, based on that logic? Well we did up to a few hundred years ago. It may well come back into fashion one day. Who knows?
Regards
Kenf

[hubird]

Check the german cannibal: he found a victim who wanted to be eaten, they cut off his penis, baked the thing and eated it together.
After that the cannibal killed the other, and eated him over a couple of times.
happy Christmas

[ChrisWerner]

Hapless germany has no laws about cannibalism and I´m interested how this process ends.

[astroman]

On 2003-12-28 04:55, Kenf wrote:
...I have never been able to understand what the difference between man and animals is? Surely we should eat each other, based on that logic? ...

there is a good reason why we usually stay away from eating each other.
Virus diseases do spread extremely good this way. The lack of appetite might be a natural precaution.

The more closely 'related' the specimen, the more likely a virus can 'cross the border'.
The opposite conclusion makes the infection more difficult, but in the same moment effects are more disastrous for the 'completely unprepared' organism.

HIV is suspected to originate from apes and became a human disease by consumption of ape meat. Unfortunately it hits a vital part of our organism which will eventually lead to death, but the original infection is almost always overlooked.
On the other hand we're about to expect literally millions of death from human infections with variants of poultry flu in the next years.

cheers, Tom