100khz osc

spiderman · Post by **spiderman** » Thu Oct 02, 2003 5:24 am

is there a way to do a 100khz pulse wave on mod2 ?
I guess no ? but ?

[ This Message was edited by: spiderman on 2003-10-02 06:30 ]

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Thu Oct 02, 2003 6:24 am

I think a Niquist triangle is as far as you can go -what would you use a 100kHz signal for?
Kyma runs at 100kHz fixed...

spiderman · Post by **spiderman** » Thu Oct 02, 2003 6:56 am

it's not to do music for my dog !

just to do a 1:1 emulation of the arp pro soloist OSC . It use a very high frequency osc with 6 dividers . if you mix this six pulse of differrent lenght you have a kind of saw wave ( with stairs .. ).
I have post a link where there is the arp patent for the pro soloist (on the wish list ) . the high frequency osc give pulse from 16khz to 128khz . maybe there is a better way to do the exact shape of the soloist osc ? I started to design something with my flexorized modII . it works but the osc frequency is not enough high to do lead sounds .

[ This Message was edited by: spiderman on 2003-10-02 07:59 ]

[ This Message was edited by: spiderman on 2003-10-02 08:00 ]

visilia · Post by **visilia** » Thu Oct 02, 2003 9:42 am

Does there even exists a playback system (amplifier, monitors) that handles such high frequecies?

spiderman · Post by **spiderman** » Thu Oct 02, 2003 10:02 am

no indeed and even if exist our ears don't perceive it .
but in fact I need a 16khz to 136khz pulse osc followed by 6 dividers . by mixing together the output of each divider ( pulse with different lenght ) we obtain something like a saw wave ( but with stairs in it ) . it is how from a single simple pulse vco , arp prosoloist do saw wave . and from this saw wave they generate a pulse width with a saw to pulse module ( there is one in flexor ) .
sure I can use a saw osc directly . but the prosoloist osc is very particular . the pulse width modulation seems stepped etc ..

so I wonder if this kind of recreation is possible because with the pulsar at 44,1 khz I think I can have a 22.05khz pulse inside the modular but no more ? but maybe there is a clever math solution to do this etc ..

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Thu Oct 02, 2003 11:38 am

seems like a platform limitation to me. Or more like, something most digital platforms aren't capable of doing, yet.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 4:29 pm

Spiderman, imho you can stick with your design principle and just scale down frequencies in relation.
They probably used those high rates because it was easier to keep them stable in those days.
Current oscillators are rock solid, so you'll probably end with the same result - unless the analog circuitry of the ARP introduces some special side-effects.

just 2 cents, Tom

McLemming · Post by **McLemming** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 10:45 am

You should be able to get almost the same effect by running a saw wave through a bit depth converter. You won't be able to get exactly 6 steps though, you'll have to quantize to either 2 or 3 bits which will give you 4 or 8 steps respectively.

The high frequencies were probably used to make anti-aliasing filtering easier/cheaper. Exactly the same principle is used by the oversampling 1bit DACs found in most CD players.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 12:10 pm

welcome McLemming,

that is a very good idea ! but it will make it even harder for Spiderman to fake the original ARP as know the behaviour of the filtering has to be taken into account, too

cheers, Tom

spiderman · Post by **spiderman** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 7:25 am

thanks guys !
your are right astroman . arp use a high frequency osc in their design because it's more stable .
i've posted a link to the arp prosoloist patent on the devices wishlist . there is all the schematics .just all we need to do a 1:1 emulation !

component by component .
it could be amazing to have a kind of modular but instead of managing modules we could manage resistors,capacitors etc.. all the electronic stuffs . the ultimate modular !

[ This Message was edited by: spiderman on 2003-10-16 08:30 ]

marcuspocus · Post by **marcuspocus** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 7:43 am

On 2003-10-16 08:25, spiderman wrote:
thanks guys !
your are right astroman . arp use a high frequency osc in their design because it's more stable .
i've posted a link to the arp prosoloist patent on the devices wishlist . there is all the schematics .just all we need to do a 1:1 emulation ! component by component .
it could be amazing to have a kind of modular but instead of managing modules we could manage resistors,capacitors etc.. all the electronic stuffs . the ultimate modular !

Well, that's SCOPE/DP

spiderman · Post by **spiderman** » Mon Oct 20, 2003 8:49 am

no scope dp is at a higher level

ReD_MuZe · Post by **ReD_MuZe** » Tue Oct 21, 2003 10:50 pm

not nessecarily. scope DP can also be very low level

spiderman · Post by **spiderman** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 6:59 am

sure . but it's not at all what I mean . is there a list of resitor, capacitor, transitor,FET,ic, tube in DP ? could you choose between polystyren , tantalum ,ceramic capacitor ?

spacef · Post by **spacef** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 9:56 am

I would say you have to be extremely experienced to make a complex electronic circuit in DP. I wouldn't say it's impossible, but rather, pointless. Scematics of circuits are generally useless. DP or the Modular are in the functional domain only (like all building sofwares i know and have heard of).
There a a few parts of an electric/electronic schematic that can be reproduced in DP and that will actually look like the electronic circuit itself (some basic filters can be like that) , but how to make a circuit that use gold or silver wires rather than copper, and from which manufacturer ? for this you can emulate the sound by using various functional modules.
And yes, if there were something that would emulate all electronic parts of a circuit, it would be great to reproduce schmatics on the web, but you must have a solid electric/electronic knowledge to go beyond that...

My two cents, i'm not familiar with electronic schematics nor reproducing them (at least, not from the circuit to the function) ...... but I find the discussion interesting.

have a nice day everybody...

[ This Message was edited by: spacef on 2003-10-22 14:57 ]

j9k · Post by **j9k** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:33 am

try running the flexor ramp osc through my a2d mdl. it was built with 8 of the bit chop atoms. each output will be double the frequency of the previous output.

j9k

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Fri Oct 24, 2003 1:52 pm

jud, can you e-mail me with your msn messenger mail account or ICQ? I want to get in touch with you.

[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2003-10-24 14:53 ]

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sat Oct 25, 2003 6:19 pm

On 2003-10-22 10:56, spacef wrote:
I wouldn't say it's impossible, but rather, pointless. ... DP or the Modular are in the functional domain only (like all building sofwares i know and have heard of).

exactly - the final goal is a certain sound

In the analog world it is modelleled by circuits. Simple like resistors and capacitors or complex like transistors.
In the software domain that is done by the modules of a developement system, which execute the function of a group of elements.

If one really wants to get down to basics and model the analog modelling system in software, that would be an almost infinetely complex piece of software.
The Sharcs processing power is rather high and they seem to have excellent basic functions, but still it took CW a huge effort to model something (electronically) simple as the Moog filter.
In real world the transistors of that filter had to be manually measured and selected, that's why Moog never got beyond 24db.
It was simply impossible to find enough matching pieces.

There is no way to precicely model on that level in software on any affordable machine, though I must admit that I'd like the idea, too.

cheers, Tom

spacef · Post by **spacef** » Sun Oct 26, 2003 6:05 am

not to say that, if the transistor/valves etc emulations are really well done, you may have to wait half an hour until the software gets hot

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sun Oct 26, 2003 7:59 am

maybe we could get some analog warmth into the processing by gently overheating the CPU core ?

Tom