CreamWare reloaded

John Cooper · Post by **John Cooper** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 1:19 pm

On 2004-01-31 09:15, CW Frank wrote:

* DP future
There will only be one package in the future, the complete SDK. One major reason for resticting avail of DP and SDK in the past was that we were not able or willing to provide (complex) support for these tools. We are now looking at a much more permissive circulation of the SDK but on a clear "as is", "use at your own risk" and "no support" basis. It would surely be great to see a community develop where users can obtain help, hints. and ideas. In short - we want to do a much better job with 3rd parties than we have done so far.

I'm surprised that no one has picked up on that comment yet. Frank, in my opinion, this would be an EXCELLENT way to promote futher community involvement in the platform. If the DP/SDK tools were released, for free, for anyone who's interested, under the condition that the tools are "as is" and "unsupported", and under the condition that they may not be used to make commercial products, I think the results could be fantastic. You'd have enthusiasts creating new atoms and objects that could be shared back into the community. You could have collaborative device development projects, etc. SOme other products like Max/DSP and Nord Modular have a great community of people sharing and creating new and unexpected stuff- it would be great if the SFP community were similarly "opened" up. This idea alone could draw new customers to the platform.

Of course, I'm assuming there'd be a separate arrangement with those who wish to profit from their development efforts (i.e. the same DP software, but with some kind of support plan, which can be sold thru the Creamware shop, thereby providing revenue to both the developers and to CWA).

This is all very exciting---
-John

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 1:25 pm

On 2004-01-31 12:36, Shayne White wrote:
If SFP for OS X isn't happening right now, then you'd better stop saying you support the Mac on your boxes. It's misleading, for it can't work in any of the computers made within the last year or two. ...

I don't think it's misleading, as NOAH software does run on Mac OSX.
NOAH software is branch of SFP and it is planned to be exanded in future, obviously.
Given the fact that (probably) everyone would be happy with an external device why not unite the 2 approaches ?

New DSP versions are unavoidable anyway considering mid time forecasting.
Nomore PCI whatever issues, nomore concerns of heat and noise and nomore opening that damn PC box

cheers, Tom

thorkell · Post by **thorkell** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 1:39 pm

I think opening the SDK for the platform would be a huge issue! We have seen in the past lots of great plugins for SFP from people not selling them.....
A SFP FW/USB2 box would be exellent for many of us - especially considering the price of the Magma boxes now. Another thing supporting this idea is increased power in laptops so now it is feasible for the first time to really use laptops for heavy studio work!

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 1:40 pm

On 2004-01-31 13:19, John Cooper wrote:
... If the DP/SDK tools were released, ... and under the condition that they may not be used to make commercial products, I think the results could be fantastic. You'd have enthusiasts creating new atoms and objects that could be shared back into the community. ...

John, you cannot develope new atoms with DP, you can 'only' rearrange the existing ones, or did I miss something ?
Nevertheless the Flexor example already proved the fantastic potential contained in the package.
But to prevent commercial engagement would surely take out some motivation and could be counterproductive.
Just leave the copy protection away would be enough imho.

cheers, Tom

MCCY · Post by **MCCY** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 1:49 pm

Yes!!!!
Let SDK be free or for a low price!!!!! This would make explode marketing. Everybody would know that there is a platform where tons of free devices circulate. SDK would become a legend. Everybody would like to participate...

The community would judge about the quality of the plugins, so no crap would spread around. PlanetZ should be made Creamware-side No1. Close down the forum on http://www.creamware.de.

Firewire is great. Maybe Noah has potential to get own RAM and all routing from SFP in the future. Wow. Gigantic.

Martin

John Cooper · Post by **John Cooper** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 2:54 pm

On 2004-01-31 13:40, astroman wrote:
John, you cannot develope new atoms with DP, you can 'only' rearrange the existing ones, or did I miss something ?

The SDK has never been released to developers... Only DP. The SDK allows you to create things, in a higher level language (sortof Java-like), e.g. sequencers, etc, that you can't do just with SHARC dsp code.
So yes, you could create new atoms using the SDK.

I assume that as part of the tools package, they will also release the tools to allow you to convert native sharc code into actual Scope atoms. But I'm not sure. To do that, I think you also need some tools from Analog Devices (the ez-kit lite).

-John

Shayne White · Post by **Shayne White** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 3:00 pm

So -- the SDK is basically a package to code DSP atoms, right? So you'd need to know how to program SHARC DSP code? Most people would probably stick with the atom-arranging software.

But if the entire thing were opened up, that would be wonderful as it would make SFP as extenstive as VST. We'd then think about designing a Web site dedicated to SFP devices, like Cakewalk's DirectX Files site.

It all sounds too cool!!

Shayne

interloper · Post by **interloper** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 3:25 pm

Frank, releasing the complete SDK without support is a great idea. Here's why:

- Number 1 reason for the community = a clear jump ahead of all the other DSP card manufacturers (UAD, Powercore, etc.). I'm not aware that any of these support an "open" architecture, which allows motivated users to create new tools. This clearly differentiates us from the rest. It seems to me that we already have quite a head start, let's capitalize on that now!

- Number 1 reason for CW = zero support costs. The developer community will evolve in order to support itself, sharing ideas, concepts, perhaps even some of the code. This will breathe new life into third party development like never before.

- As you've stated, marketing SFP is extremely difficult. Simple ideas catch on quicker. However, making the SDK available will create additional momentum and help to propagate the concept, architecture, and the system as a whole. The buzz that will be generated within and outside our community will be tremendous.

On anther topic, I think FireWire/USB2 is a clear way to ensure that new specifications from elitist hardware manufacturers (Scheiss Apfel), will not alienate product users that have invested in that particular hardware from said manufacturer. Powercore is doing it. With some of the development done for the Noah chassis, some of that could potentially be used for housing a Scope card, or two, or three. Seems that a little catching up in that area is in order. I'd hate to see even one Mac user abandon the CW platform...

Also, keep XTC simple, otherwise the differentiation between XTC and non-XTC mode will be blurred, thus confusing potential customers.

Thanks for listening.
Sven

[ This Message was edited by: interloper on 2004-01-31 15:26 ]

roberflas · Post by **roberflas** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 3:30 pm

If CWA opens your SDK in the same way steinberg do for VST, the SFP plattform run into the great league of audio solutions for all, proffessional and amateurs, with a great new human potential for a great range of ideas from all over the world.
This is the best marketing maneuver that a company can do, this is the reason for VST still alive and increase your user base in this complicated audio world.

R-type · Post by **R-type** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 3:37 pm

Yes I think firewire, USB 2 is the way. Solves so many technical issues.

Beef up Noah a bit, develop it's software a little more.

I'd love to see the option to use XTC plugins without the Creamware ASIO drivers, basically like a firewire powercore but with wicked synths.

roberflas · Post by **roberflas** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 3:42 pm

In case of CWA this is result in more cards, Noah, or any of your future products with SFP as core, sold, and no support cost for developers.
SFP is the most great and brilliant plattform for DAW's and not to talk his sounding and flexibility, with a lot people do developmen for it, to obtain the high place in any studio in the world is easy.
Congratulations for this forum with Frank and thank you for asnwer and ask at the community.
Best regrads

Jordan Vesteyo · Post by **Jordan Vesteyo** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 3:53 pm

[ This Message was edited by: Jordan Vesteyo on 2004-01-31 15:54 ]

jtek · Post by **jtek** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 4:36 pm

releasing the dp software would be a great first step for creamware. Being a smaller staff now, it may be awhile before we see anything signifcantly new...maybe not

Hopefully this is feasible, because I thought creamware had to pay analog devices for use of the software...or least the SDK kit. This is why the software cost so much.

That said, this would benefit both creamware and the community so much! and I would think fairly quickly.

[ This Message was edited by: jtek on 2004-01-31 16:36 ]

huffcw · Post by **huffcw** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 4:39 pm

I will put my vote in for a USB 2.0 or Firewire interface.

I personally think it would be great if you could stay with the concept of keeping compatibility with the old cards. In other words, develop an external box that will house a Pulsar or PowerPulsar card (that you already own) and connect to your computer using USB 2.0 or Firewire. Even better... Add some mic preamps/hi-z/line inputs to the external box as an option that connects to the internal card. This would povide an all in one, portable solution that is an add-on, rather than replacing existing cards.

Of course, you could also sell it as a complete package with a card inside for new customers.

I think Noah is great. But I really like the idea of having the full SFP capabilities in an external box that would allow it to be more portable (and transferable between computers - i.e. laptop and desktop). If you can get it to work without too many changes to the current software, then the development may not be too bad (especially if you can leverage the development that went into the USB on Noah). I think it would be a great concept if it is possible to make it work.

I would also like to see the keyboard version of the Noah come back as a possibility. Also, if you can get sampling and the modular synth to work in Noah - I think it would explode (which I think has also been mentioned in some of the Noah reviews appearing in magazines).

Finally, before anything else please fix the bugs that already exists in some of the devices and release improved ASIO and WDM drivers.

[ This Message was edited by: huffcw on 2004-01-31 16:40 ]

doodyrh · Post by **doodyrh** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 4:45 pm

I'm all for the opening up of SDK/DP, but CW also have to protect their own revenue which, I guess, relies heavily on selling their own plugins. Seeing this happen will be a major step in convincing me that now things really are different.

As for hardware, Pulsar is the main thing stopping me using a laptop so USB2/Firewire is a good thing if the performance were up there. However, to persuade me to buy one I'd need to see my investment protected by economical memory and processor upgrades.

By making products attractive in this way CW could rely more on new sales for revenue rather than existing users.

Push thumbs

huffcw · Post by **huffcw** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 4:55 pm

On the marketing - I agree that SFP goes too deep for many potential users to really grasp and understand. I think it would help if there were two modes for SFP... basic and advanced.

I know XTC is suppose to be the basic mode - but I would rather see a mode that works like the Noah synth, but runs off the DSP cards.

It would be more restrictive than the current "advanced" SFP mode (the same way Noah is more restrictive), but would allow many people who do not need the more advanced features to get up and running quicker. This would make it more geared toward the musician that just wants to plugin and go, rather than the studio professional.

Also, if this basic, more restrictive mode allowed for an even more stable system, that would be a great side effect.

I believe making things more simple would allow the system to open up to a much larger audience that wants access to the great synths and effects, but wants it without any learning curve - a plug in and go system.

Combine this with the USB 2.0/Firewire box mentioned earlier - and I could see many musicians getting on board. They could have a huge variety of very portable synths and effects to take with them (laptop + Pulsar box + controller keyboard) to play out without too much fuss.

Immanuel · Post by **Immanuel** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 5:02 pm

My suggestions:

XTC/SFP dual mode:
Can ASIO have a maximum of 64 stereo channels? If so, then I have an idea here. In SFP/XTC mode (SXTC? (joke)) ASIO in out modules with 32 stereo in/outs are available.

The other 32 stereo channels are invisible and accesible via a new module the "X-insert". An X-insert has a MIDI out, a stereo out and a stereo in.

In our audio-editor (I use Samplitude), we just load an X-insert module (not a specific effect or synth - only an X-insert) - then in our SFP environment, we wire the x-insert with the devices, we want to use.

X-insert 1 will (invisibly) use ASIO 33, X-insert 2 will (invisibly) use ASIO 34, ...

I don't know, if this is possible with all audio editors. Samplitude automatically changes the number of ASIO in/outs in realtime, if I change the number in SFP.

For simpler wiring, the X-insert device could have no in/outs - instead it could load a device - like a normal insert. In this case, I would prefer to see the possibility to have it multi-insert like (remember wet/dry controls (and maybe rearange) - thank you).

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SDK for all:
I think it would only be ok, if there was no copy-protection provided. The current developers have spend a considderable amount of money on their DPs. Give them copy protection, but don't give it to everybody else. Also, this would awoid a plentitude of crappy SFP devices in the commercial category. Commercial should still be a guaranty, that the developer put some bod sweat and tears into his/her work.

*********************************************

Firewire suggestion:
Make it modular with slots. Maybe six slots, each with the capacity to hold 8 DSPs. This will make it expandable and custommizable to all user needs/pockets. Also I/O modules - like the present i/o options - but with hardwired connections - not a cable whip.

*********************************************

Stand alone suggestion (firewire 2):
Like the firewire suggestion. But this one has 2 monitor outputs for flatpannels or CRTs. It would also have 2 PS2 connections. Finally it would have a firewire connection to hook it up with another PC. 2 slots for removeable harddrives wouldn't be bad either - but it is not a must to me (to people using your hard disk recording plug in - it will be). If firewire connected, it is possible to use the mouse, keyboard and monitor from the connected PC.

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I know, that some of these constructions will take quite a bit of resources to put together. Also some may not be technically possible. They are ideas anyway. Personally I am a student (low income), but I don't think you should dump your prices.

Immanuel

Immanuel · Post by **Immanuel** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 5:33 pm

I believe that is an ASIO limitation - not an SFP limitation.

virtualstudio · Post by **virtualstudio** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 6:14 pm

hi,
As I said in the locked thread its Great to have CW reloaded and out of insolvency.

I think its a bit to much for us to ask for a new sort of board (firewire/usb2)
Me I own now six CW boards and unless I"m misunderstanding it would mean replacing them.
I don't think the software will match (tell me if I'm wrong).

for me it would be nice if the software would just get better than it already is
the STS5000 could do with some updating
I would really like a CW sequencer program
some more high-end effects,
maybe SFP4.0 although I'm very happy with this version of SFP

I do agree with people that your support and website could do a bit better
(thanks planetZ for filling up that gap)

but In general Keep up the good work !!(from before insolvency problems)

regards
Terranova-Amsterdam

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 7:36 pm

On 2004-01-31 18:14, virtualstudio wrote:
...I think its a bit to much for us to ask for a new sort of board (firewire/usb2)
Me I own now six CW boards and unless I"m misunderstanding it would mean replacing them...

the current boards are fine, but new DSPs are inevitable sooner or later (Frank Hund himself once mentioned this in an interview).

Instead of a new PCI/PCI-X design with architecture concern (Macs and WinTel machines use a different byte order) it would perfectly make sense to focus on an external box.

The software could support both with no need to exchange existing gear and the number of DSPs wouldn't be limited by available slots.
Of course there's no S/TDM-ing of the outboard DSPs, but as future ones will be faster there's probably not much need for that.

cheers, Tom