PlanetZ forums - scopeusers.com

Straw-man argument!

That was not a straw-man argument.
It was not even an argument, it was mockery of Braincel's accusation that the christians are to blame for the fact that not everyone in the US has health care.

Why don't you ask our fellow member in Australia, AudioIrony about it. He just had a major operation on his ear. I asked what the cost was and he said "nothing, we have national health insurance". You can bet he is glad.

If he said he paid "nothing" he did not think it thru completely.
He is still paying for it every time he pays his taxes.
So are his neighbors. and the people down the street,etc.

It'd be like retirees saying the Government is just sending them free money every time they get their social security checks! The notion is ludicrous.

someone always pays.

Garyb.

I agree with everything you say. Yup W and Tony, Bilderberg, the grove, the damn IMF and world bank. The rockafellas n rothchilds etc. I might even buy into the Icke Anunaki thing, or even the lost civilization of Hancock. im not sure how you feel on these, but im pretty openminded.
Except I cant agree with the god bit. Science is well on the way to explaining everything and as more knowledge is gathered, the more god retreats further into the smallest of gaps. Science has always superceded religion. Is there a single time when as a people we've obtained knowledge ,which has superceded the scientific view, from religion? Whereas I know of many examples where scientific knowledge has replaced that gained from ...say.. the bible.
I see no need to invoke any kind of creator.

I do verehmently opppse any paticular god because once you define 'god', then the illogic become obvious, and a non definable god, who created the universe, sometime somewhere for some reason, is just a waste of time. Why bother with god. If you know nothing about it, or can never know anything about it, even if its really there........ seriously ... what would be the point.

Also saying god created logic is also plain silly, is there any proof of this.. Man created logic to understand things.


tho I think im out of this topic, its so much more fun to watch the thread fall apart as the theists are bound to end up argueing about the true god, and the athiests argue about ....well at the moment... healthcare........

hehe this is great, keep it up y'all

Having bought Hitchens' book, let me quote some paragraphs.

Hitchens wrote: But both in theory and in practice, religion uses the innocent and the defenseless for the purpose of experiment. By all means let an observant Jewish adult male have his raw-cut penis placed in the mouth of a rabbi. (That would be legal at least in New York.) By all means let grown women who distrust their clitoris or their labia have them sawn away by some other wretched adult female. By all means let Abraham offer to commit suicide to prove his devotion to the Lord or his belief in the voices he was hearing in his head. By all means let devout parents deny themselves the succor of medicine when in accute pain and distress. By all means--for all I care--let a priest sworn to celibacy be a promiscuous homosexual. By all means let a congregation that believes in whipping out the devil choose a new grown-up sinner each week and lash him until he or she bleeds. By all means let anyone who believes in creationism instruct his fellows during lunch breaks. But the conscription of the unprotected child for these purposes is something that even the most dedicated secularist can safely describe as sin.

Hitchens wrote:
Many religions now come before us with ingratiating smirks and outspread hands, like an unctuous merchant in a bazaar. They offer consolation and solidarity and uplift, competing as they do in a marketplace. But we have a right to remember how barbarically they behaved when they were strong and were making an offer that people could not refuse. And if we chance to forget what that must have been like, we have only to look at those states and societies where the clergy still has the power to dictate its own terms.
The pathetic vestiges of this can still be seen, in modern societies, in the efforts made by religion to secure control over education, or to exempt itself from tax, or to pass laws forbiding people to insult its omnipotent and omniscient deity, or even his prophet.

I am having some problems now and will be away for a while. Astro, I hope you are better.

I want to pay taxes to heal people and not to kill people.

hitchins is the one who called for the iraq invasion. there, i've said it again. he worries about those things but is for mass murder. at the bohemian grove he participates in a human sacrifice ritual(mock). couldn't you find a better hero/standard bearer?

(response to hitchin's first paragraph)
well, I'm not sure if generlizing localized examples is a strong argument, although the examples are quite disturbing. There are plenty of religion gone wrong moments, and of course many instances where religion (not just christianity) really help people square up and get their lives together. And I'm talking basics, like strangers finding comfort in a church (where everything is familiar), a busy worker finding peace of mind through zazen, etc.. You just have to keep you mind open. I'm not saying religion has to work for everyone, but it you can't deny the fact that it really does work in a positive way, for some. (if they reach wher ever it is they want to reach) Which I find is no problem at all, if it works for them.

To build on what braincell was saying though, alot of the times it seems to me that it's a bad mixture of uneducated people relying on a religious world view, is when things tend to go wrong. There is a very defined group of people who get really caught up in a religion, become an extremist, and just get all weird.. I think all religions have these fanatics..

Kensugro,


A lot is two words. Can you please comment on national health insurance in Japan?

ah, thnx a lot. lol btw, you're having problems? Is everything alright?

Anyway, the health insurance in Japan (now that I've in the US for a couple of years) is awesome. Not that I see any direct relationship with the topic, but not too many people think much about the basic health insurance in Japan. The insurance is government run, and the insurance card is almost like standard ID, like the social security card. It works well, I don't think most people are aware of how it works, it just works. You just go to a doctor, he checks your card, and you're done. Also, going to a doctor in Japan is much MUCH easier than in the US. No primary care physician referrals necessary. You can have one, but you can also go directly to any doctor. In most cases, you can just go and be looked at. There's also no "in network" or "out of network" thing, because there are no networks. This all applies to dental care as well. You can get your wisdom tooth knocked out for less than $40 after insurance is applied, and that's how much you pay at the cashier..

Private health care insurances also do exist, and earn big bucks. You can buy plans to cover hospitalizing, cancer and other terminal disease, and death. Women also have great benefits for buying private health insurance for obvious reasons.

Of course, I can go on and on about health insurance, taxing, the war, blah blah.. but again, I don't see how it relates to religion.

hm, would large font styles convince me more than normal ones?

scope4live wrote:Hey, My favorite way to rid myself of people who wish to save me and my twisted world is to invite them inside.

Jehovahs witnesses are the best. There's always 2 or 3, and usually male and females together, as the Lord intended of course.

Pretend you are really interested and bring them into your house, asked them to have a refreshment to make them comfortable, and after they are seated sit next to the dame and let them make their speil, the whole time you are caressing the womans leg and have your arm around her. I guarentee they are too shy to make a scene, and it's kind of fun to see the broad getting a little bit giddy. They will not come back I guarentee it. But if the girl shows back up alone, you'll know why. Then I suggest while having sex with her to qoute from the Bible using a Charlton Heston type voice ( a little verb for God like autheticity ) and say .......Here's Your Daily Bread. It's a win win situation. You could have sex with a sweet good hearted woman, or they never come back. Both are acceptable solutions for me.

fantastic !

It's relevant Kensuguro because the republicans have been blocking health care while they emphasize how christian they are. As you witness in this group they don't want the government to help anyone. They want all charity to come from the church so they can push jesus on us. Christians want to kill not heal. I'm not kidding look how pro-death penalty they are.

republicans have been blocking health care while they emphasize how christian they are.

That is because they, along with a bunch of Democrats, are smart enough to know how foolish it would be to nationalize heath care insurance.

Christians want to kill not heal.

Both a gross generalization and a distortion of truth. You have a talent for these things!

I'm not kidding look how pro-death penalty they are.

again, a gross generalization. Ask the catholic church their feelings on the death penalty.

From what Kensuguro says, national health care is way better in Japan than our sorry pathetic system. You like it the way it is? What is your answer to the 47 million with no insurance? You want them to die?

Insurance is set up to make money for stock holders. If you are too sick, they drop you. They don't care about us Ok? And medicine is way too expensive. The Japanese don't even think about it. Hey wouldn't that be nice? You don't want that? What is your problem??????

Kensuguro,

I am sorry but something is wrong with these selfish americans. It's disgusting to me and I am ashamed to be a citizen when there are so many people who don't care about others unless they can get a tax break for donating to jesus.

You like it the way it is? What is your answer to the 47 million with no insurance? You want them to die?

First of all, that is not a rational argument. Just because 47 million people do not have heath issurance does'nt mean they are all going to die.. at least not from lack of health care..

Second, no I hate the way it is. I mean I reaaaaaaly hate it.
I went for YEARS without health care insurance. I have it now, but the hoops those bastards make you jump thru is unbelievable.
My wife and I had to fight tooth and nail to get my little boy growth hormone treatment, because he has pituitary dwarfism.
If we had nationalized healthcare, I believe it would have been even more difficult to get him his medicine. If you want to make things easier, you certainly dont want to involve the Government.

As for what to do to make it better, I'd have to say the first thing we need to do is get some changes made to our legal system. No more idiots suing the drycleaners for 52 million dollars for a pair of lost pants.
No more doctors careers ended because of a mistake.
Part of the problem is the astronomical cost to a doctor to do buisiness.. or as our beloved President would say.. 'to practice their love'

If you are too sick, they drop you

That is not true. I mean, you might find some antecdotal evidence here or there to support your hatred of the heath care insurance providers as a whole, but even though I cant stand my health care provider, and even though they are a pain to deal with..
They have not dropped me or my family when my boy was diagnosed with his issues.

And medicine is way too expensive.

yes, I agree with you it is. a 1 month supply of my sons medcine is 1200 bucks.
That's almost 1 scope card EVERY MONTH!

The Japanese don't even think about it. Hey wouldn't that be nice? You don't want that? What is your problem??????

My problem is that I don't look for the government to pay for all my problems.
I don't like Government programs, because they tend to be expensive and inefficient.

yeah, the reason medicine is so expensive is that companies are allowed to recoup their developement costs even though the government granted the money for developement.

you want to really fix health costs? eliminate insurance and the idea that doctors should make more money than trashmen(you think you'd rather have doctors, but you can live and die without being "practiced" on, no problem, but a couple of weeks without the trashman.....)

really, braincell, you are mistaken about the republicrats being different than the democans. those guys have really messed with your head. don't you know that behind the scenes they all belong to the same private clubs and that the laugh at your gullibility?

and what about hitchins being a two faced warmonger? what a hypocrite he is! he blames religion for wars and killing, then he calls for this iraq bloodbath. haha.

manfriday wrote: Part of the problem is the astronomical cost to a doctor to do buisiness.. or as our beloved President would say.. 'to practice their love'

garyb wrote:yeah, the reason medicine is so expensive is that companies are allowed to recoup their developement costs even though the government granted the money for developement.

you want to really fix health costs? eliminate insurance and the idea that doctors should make more money than trashmen(you think you'd rather have doctors, but you can live and die without being "practiced" on, no problem, but a couple of weeks without the trashman.....)

really, braincell, you are mistaken about the republicrats being different than the democans. those guys have really messed with your head. don't you know that behind the scenes they all belong to the same private clubs and that the laugh at your gullibility?

and what about hitchins being a two faced warmonger? what a hypocrite he is! he blames religion for wars and killing, then he calls for this iraq bloodbath. haha.

I'm glad you got the joke Bingo.


But it's a shame you couldn't come up with a better response for Gary.
heh.

stardust wrote:
Still no clue what the real offer of atheistic world view to this world will be.

Well, one without gods and lies. That wasn't that hard was it?
Thanks for coming back. We miss your self-righteousness.

stardust wrote:

BingoTheClowno wrote:

stardust wrote:
Still no clue what the real offer of atheistic world view to this world will be.

Well, one without gods and lies. That wasn't that hard was it?

No god ? ok, why not.

Because none exist, thus the lies.

Stardust wrote: Good point, maybe the nobrainer level is the reason for the irrelevance .

Whose?