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On 2005-07-08 04:57, Spirit wrote:
dArKr3zIn it must be quite frustrating for you then to live in this terrible 'debauched and selfish' society.

I'm very interested to know what other societies are around today that come closer to your ideal ? Are there some particular countries you could name ?

Spare me the sarcasm dude... the mechanics of global economic imperialism destroy all good aspects of cultures, and perpetuate the dark sides.

Take a look around you... are you really so blind? Maybe you live in a nice neighbourhood, which is why you're so oblivious to what's going on in the world. However, you should know that people are suffering and dying so that you can live comfortably.

Please note I'm not trying to judge you, or single you out. Your attitude does not surprise me, and is symptomatic of the cultural brainwashing we have in the west.

However, do yourself a favour and broaden your horizons a little.. to think the whole world is as rosy as your own back garden is sheer ignorance.

Where are the tears for the people who are murdered every day in large cities? They are a little story and not an international one. This is no different and no more horrible to survivors and families and any other murder. We make a big deal out of it because it is an unexpected tragedy but we all knew that the invasion of Iraq would trigger more incidents like this and I knew it will go on for a long time maybe 50 or 100 years. Violence is always countered with violence. When will people learn that killing people is not the way to solve your problems? I am saying this to the terrorists and to Bush.

Braincell has a very good point.

On one hand, the scum who run America are trying to say that they are protecting America and its people.

Yet go to the average ghetto in America and you'll see a lot of urban decay, violence and hard-drug use. Where is the protection for these Americans?

One very depressing thing I have seen since the 9/11 attacks is a show by a black American comedian, who started making jokes about 'rag-heads' etc.. (amusingly enough he used footage of Sikhs, not Muslims... just goes to show the all-pervading power of ignorance).

I could not help being profoundly disturbed that a black American was actively subscribing to the same ignorant racism that oppressed his people for hundreds of years. This is what brainwashing is, and it is symptomatic of a debauched, selfish society.

I guess Spirit is familiar with all these analyses, like I do
Don't be the mad prophet, Darkrzn, running around to tell people what they surely know already, it's documented also on the news.
Life and society is to complicated to devide reality in good and bad
but I don't start a new discussion here, have fun

Hubird, I appreciate your rational tone. I know that getting caught up in this stuff makes one paranoid and angry, and it can lead one away from happiness.

However, when I see people desperately clinging to the values of their society, even when they know full well something is deeply rotten, I can't just shut up and hope it goes away.

It's not about good and bad, it's about reading a little about history, seeing what happened with the crusades and the colonial eras, and then looking at the world today.

If people continue to believe western society is in the right, then I will always be the mad prophet boring you all to death. Because I firmly believe that the comforts of the west were bought by the blood of millions, if not billions, of innocent people of other cultures, throughout history. The funny thing is that oridinary citizens in the west are treated with just as much contempt by our leaders, but we lap it up because we value our comforts.

It's like a drug... you get hooked on something so blissful (comfortable ignorance) that you'll do anything to sustain your habit.

I will never accept this as many others do, sorry Therefore, as long as I have the energy, I will fight it in any way I can. I admit that a soundcard forum is a rather absurd place for this, but I think the vast majority of people on this board are pretty intelligent and balanced, and can handle a discussion. I do feel very strongly about this issue, so I can be a bit passionate at times, but I only want to inform people about something which I see as a threat to our planet.

I look at my beloved nephew and it makes me desperately sad to think he is growing up in such a fucked world. It scares me that our earth's ecosystem is being destroyed. And the reason why our children have this to look forward to is that we are all too damn lazy and lethargic to face up to difficult problems that require us to re-evaluate our approach to our lives. Yet the only wisdom most people teach their children is the joy of consumption. Is it any wonder that child obesity rates are sky-high?

Why do we humans let this happen? It is easier to accept it than do anything about it... very very sad.

On 2005-07-08 05:46, braincell wrote:
Where are the tears for the people who are murdered every day in large cities? They are a little story and not an international one. This is no different and no more horrible to survivors and families and any other murder. We make a big deal out of it because it is an unexpected tragedy but we all knew that the invasion of Iraq would trigger more incidents like this and I knew it will go on for a long time maybe 50 or 100 years. Violence is always countered with violence. When will people learn that killing people is not the way to solve your problems? I am saying this to the terrorists and to Bush.

Now that is a good point! Don't you all see what this media is doing ? There blowing things right out of proportion. And then saying it was an attack on the whole world.
Pfff. Alquida this , Alquida that!
Bull.... The media is spreading more fear that this whole bombing thing caused.

I've only one thing to say.

"HEGELIAN PRINCIPLE" in action. Same as 911.
We are supposed to be very scared right now and 'they' expect us to demand more security from 'them'. Just listen to these silly questions reporters ask. The only real implication about all this is that more security is going to be enforced upon us.
Ask yourself : "If Londen was so well prepaired, and did not succeed in preventing all this" Why would extra security measures be effective in the future? Face it , we cannot arm ourselves against these kind of attacks. We can only try to take away all motives to these kind of sick actions.
That would be the only prevetion.

Peace!

Absolutely..

There has been a massive increase in police presence in London over the last few years, and had been very intense in the weeks leading up to yesterday's attack. Yet to the 50+ people who died, and the 100's who were horribly injured, and their families, this made no difference at all.

You cannot prevent terrorism (whoever is perpetrating it). As Casper said, it makes a lot more sense to examine the root problem.

So again we come down to the root problem: economic imperialism. And ALL of us have a big part to play in that.

Would you rather that the west continued to rape the rest of the world, and accept a totalitarian police state to deal with the constant reactionary terrorist threat?

Or would you rather that we tried to rehabilitate our diseased mindset which lustfully pursues materialism at any cost?

On 2005-07-08 05:43, dArKr3zIn wrote:
Spare me the sarcasm dude...

I was not being sarcastic at all. You are obviously extremely unhappy with the main western nations and their economic & political systems.

I think it's a fair question to ask what other models you have in mind as superior.

Or is it, that despite all their faults, the US, UK etc are the best after all ?

No, bombs are no solution and only help the wrong sides.
The old trick of spreading fear.
Nobody will be convinced that way.
May god bless the victims.

I'd like to add some thoughts for the use of the words faschism and fundamentalism:

Let's start with the basic communication problem in:
Me more money, You less and must agree.
On its way it turned out, that this program is easier to do as a group.
So it changed very early to: all for us, the others must agree.
Short: oligarchia.
Legions of examples in history, some efforts against this.
Like christians. In the beginning they said: share all with everybody.
This somehow "very dangerous idea" was immediately disturbed by the addition:
but not for the women. (Paulus)
Instead of demanding: including the money. (Judas)
The resulting hassle led to the support of the Paulus party by Konstantin (weapons, troops!).
With the new slogan: all for us, eat dust if you don't agree.

Well, "share all with everybody" survived within:
katharoi, Valdez etc. (heresia)

Then the "holy clean inner circle" threw out the married ones, to make way for the
help foundation for our beloved brothers who are not allowed to divide the heritage of their family.
So the oligarch bosses had no more problem to isolate/make disappear their brothers and sisters:
"Take this monastry/cathedral and stop f..."
Of course, they went insane without, and we all remember the burning.
So, as a result, the church split.

But the "dangerous idea" survived: Kant.
With the addition of Marx: including the money.

Faschism was founded to prevent the "loss" of the money.
Impera without divide. (no dividing of the wealth of the nation)
And this is important: A whole nation (=currency!)! (Italy, Germany)

That's why I think it's better to talk about fundamentalism when it comes to discuss
the plans of any "holy clean inner circle", like the one that initiated London.
Where ever they are, and there are a lot of them, they have one thing in common:
All for us.
They differ only in: Dead or alive.

The ones "alive" could be partners to talk about replacing us with everybody, the others never.

And this never is the point of chance to ask: To be or not to be?
And raise fear and misuse it.

A dilemma, and the basic problem remains, more or less...

So we better discuss further, if it's really a good idea, these hedge fonds. And share holder values.

Spirit wrote: I think it's a fair question to ask what other models you have in mind as superior.
Or is it, that despite all their faults, the US, UK etc are the best after all ?

more dialectic seen, the question is, 'best' for whom...if you live in the west, it's 'best', if you live outside the west, you probably pay for the wealth of the west
both worlds are connected, which makes a choice for the 'best' an unfair choice.
Hm, hard to explain in non native language, but I hope you get what I mean

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2005-07-08 07:31 ]</font>

Spirit: Nice selective quoting. Unfortunately you missed or simply didn't understand what I said in this paragraph:

"the mechanics of global economic imperialism destroy all good aspects of cultures, and perpetuate the dark sides."

This is the scale of the problem we're facing Spirit. I'm not waving an anti-US or anti-UK flag here - I've lived in the UK most of my life, and I have many friends here. I am of Indian origin, and I recognise how cultures can be different, and I also recognise how cultures (including western ones) are contaminated/perverted by economic imperialism. The relentless pursuit of money and other forms of greed and debauchery (this is ingrained in law: by law, a corporation MUST GROW otherwise it faces legal repercussions) drives every society to the brink of destruction. This has been proven time and time again throughout history.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dArKr3zIn on 2005-07-08 07:13 ]</font>

If they wouldn't be telling other countries what to do, let alone bomb or manipulate them, I'm sure things would be much more relax These acts of terror are a logical consequence of their foreign policy IMO. What does freighten me more is that the people of these manipulative countries don't stand up against their criminal governments.

In what world does a president boldly promise to eradicate torture, and does he get accused of large scale torturing people on secret ships/bases around the world a couple of hours later by a most respected human rights organisation? Which do you doubt, GWB or Amnesty International? Btw, if you follow the news a bit, Spirit, concerning all the statements and abuses we discussed last year in a similar topic, you'd see that courts confirmed our suspicions, and grounded yours. History keeps on proving you and the Administration wrong, but you keep believing. My illusions have disappeared, history tells us our worse suspicions were correct, instead of proven wrong. They're so full of lies and hatred, and you keep on going with them.

Have a nice day.

On 2005-07-08 07:12, dArKr3zIn wrote:
by law, a corporation MUST GROW otherwise it faces legal repercussions)

Hmmm, which law might that be ?

But of course Capitalism has many ugly sides, like profiteering from the blasts here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4662809.stm#sad

As for the economic imperialism, I think many Asian nations seem to have done just fine. And despite this western banking conspiracy to oppress the peoples of the world, those nations have rapidly increased the standard of living, health, education & political representation of the vast majority of people.

Can't see the western conspiracy operating there too well.

On 2005-07-07 22:14, Spirit wrote:

On 2005-07-07 20:16, garyb wrote:
the banking connections are VERY easily found, if one would like to check into it. hint: check saudi arms dealers with connections to the russell trust....

mussolini defined facism thusly: " it is more properly called corporatism as it is a blend of corporate and state power."

I don't doubt that you can find connections between banks and all sorts of causes, religions, crackpots & dictators. Swiss banks have always been a favourite of the corrupt.

But it's a very long distance bewteen that and saying that banks actively sponsor terrorism.

And I think it's more likely that it would be terrorists playing a big financial game here. They'd have to be aware of the financial implications of a major attack on a country, and skew their 'fronted' investments accordingly.

I belive truth could be more close to espionage/lodges leaded plans

On 2005-07-08 07:30, at0m wrote:
Btw, if you follow the news a bit, Spirit, concerning all the statements and abuses we discussed last year in a similar topic, you'd see that courts confirmed our suspicions, and grounded yours. History keeps on proving you and the Administration wrong, but you keep believing.

Back to Iraq again ? Well, sure the pretext for war was flimsy and was found to be baseless. I disagree with the decision. But it's a fact now. Other than that I'm unsure what you're referring to ?

Still, in a larger strategic view I think the chance to install democratic government in Afghanistan and Iraq is good. There are, after all still too many fundamentalist countries where it's illegal to listen to my music Kicking out Saddam and the Taliban was a fine thing imho. I'd like to see Mugabe chucked out too - he seems to be driving that nation into the ground.

I still believe that the fact that western mistreatment of prisoners is revealed shows the underlying health of our institutions. In truly authoritarian states things like that simply never get revealed until the regime falls years or decades later.

As for believing either GWB or Amnesty International ? Hmmm. They've both got their own political agendas.

On 2005-07-08 07:54, Spirit wrote:
Kicking out Saddam and the Taliban was a fine thing imho. I'd like to see Mugabe chucked out too - he seems to be driving that nation into the ground.

It's so easy to throw around notions like this, like you're supporting one football team against the other.

It doesn't change the fact that this attitude is patronizing and ignorant.

Anyway it's difficult, especially for ordinary people, say no to all the things and all the peolple making crap of this world.
Difficult to renounce those little advantages, those little certainties; sometimes its not only difficult but either dangerous, painfull (in physical or psychical sense).
But I think men worthy to be so called, can, must oppose themselves.
The existential doubt becomes: man or sheepman?

Readin again what I've written I notice it's wrong all this good thoughts are born by terrorism. Blood is needed for wake up conscience?


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Cochise on 2005-07-08 08:11 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Cochise on 2005-07-08 08:23 ]</font>

On 2005-07-08 07:57, dArKr3zIn wrote:

On 2005-07-08 07:54, Spirit wrote:
Kicking out Saddam and the Taliban was a fine thing imho. I'd like to see Mugabe chucked out too - he seems to be driving that nation into the ground.

It's so easy to throw around notions like this, like you're supporting one football team against the other.

It doesn't change the fact that this attitude is patronizing and ignorant.

No dArKr3zIn, it's just different to your beliefs. That's one of the strengths of our society.

But yes, it was a "one-liner" about profound things. However, I think it's valid nevertheless.

edit: got all the quote marks mixed up


_________________


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Spirit on 2005-07-08 08:08 ]</font>

And perhaps the several hundred thousand people recently evicted from their homes in Zimbabwe wouldn't mind my "ignorant" statement either....

Perhaps if more African leaders also made such "ignorant" statements as mine all Africa would benefit.

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/f5763580-ee82- ... 511c8.html

Cor blimey you're a cold fish, Spirit

i dunno, it's all not good enough, no? yes?

Asia is not an easy place to live at all - or have i got you wrong?