here it goes again

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ReD_MuZe
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Re: here it goes again

Post by ReD_MuZe »

braincell - its not exactly the same as USA because we are much smaller, venerable and a big part of the country is living under constant fire for 8 years. you can imagine in israel "terrorism" as they like to call it has much much more impact on the lives of people than the US.
having said that - it is statistically more possible to get killed by a car accident or from some sort of sickness. absolutely true.
it's hard for you to imagine the behavior of someone evil.
garyb i refuse to. im sorry :)
as far as i know the hamas was supported in order to injure the PLO which at the time was considered the enemy by the center.
those stupid bastards just didnt realise how powerful islam can be, and that it has its own agenda... doh!
luckily times are changing and now the center is like the "extreme left" of the 80's. in the 80's it was considered treason to talk to the PLO. now the PLO seems to be more a partner of israel than the hamas. and even the right wing cannot deny the palestinian right for a land. (the extreme right still do but they are stupid fanatics.)
as much as there are many wars. i do think that time slowly leads us to the inevitable conclusion: we are all here to stay. israelis and palestinians. so we better make the most out of it.
i think revolutions will not do the trick here. the secret imho is evolution.

which also makes your point braincell.
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Re: here it goes again

Post by next to nothing »

By the way, you are going to hear a lot about DIME in the days to come. Dense Inert Metal Explosive.
In short, its a new bomb which is actually tailored to do LESS damage on surrounding areas of your target, which is a good thing. Buildings hit by this bomb will probably get turned to dust, while objects 10-15 meters away will seem relatively untouched. There will probably be some discussions to its radioactive properties etc. that might be interesting.

It is also interesting to see that even with the use of these bombs, they still kill civilians on a large scale. The two sides will claim that this shows Hamas is using civilians as shields, or that this shows Israel is deliberately targeting civilian buildings (like Reuters office and Al-quds hospital yesterday).
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Zer
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Re: here it goes again

Post by Zer »

the secret imho is evolution.

which also makes your point braincell.
Humanity hasn't been part of the evolution for the last 7000 years. I won`t expect much then.
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Re: here it goes again

Post by garyb »

brother Red,

in intelligence, once you make an inroads, you put all your people inside and then, control the operation. you don't just give people dangerous weapons without guidance. they might accidently hit your interests. once you get inside, why leave?

they recruit the angry and ignorant, undernourished, low intelligence types and screw them over with suicidal actions. this same exact farce plays out everywhere, this is not a unique example. you just happen to be the unfortunate guy caught up in one of the hot spots. i think it sucks, personally. i think it sucks for every actual human being over there and i realize that it's a gross understatement.

still, people like yourself are the ones who can fix the problem. even if it's by simple small actions, like respect due, carried out by many, many people. both sides must see the farce before it can end.

Red, i don't condone shooting rockets or dropping bombs, but if someone directly tries to kill you, and you must defend yourself, i pray that you are able to do so without killing him. if you must, i'm sorry, but you must. hamas is not the real target, however, although some idiot in the street might be. in this way, i'm in exactly the same situation as you. i'm in an actual battlezone(pretty quite lately, though) and i'll bet i know plenty who have been shot or killed, and added those known by those i know, more deaths than hamas ever caused. America is the exact same system, but your ghettos are uglier.
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garyb
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Re: here it goes again

Post by garyb »

Zer wrote:
the secret imho is evolution.

which also makes your point braincell.
Humanity hasn't been part of the evolution for the last 7000 years. I won`t expect much then.

there's no natural evolution of human systems. only planning and action.
ReD_MuZe
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Re: here it goes again

Post by ReD_MuZe »

next to nothing - ur right we've heard about those. and ur right this is exactly what is happening in my eyes. i don't believe there can be precision war. its just propaganda. indeed the soldiers are trying to avoid killing civilians, but lets just say that "it is not their primary concern" would be an understatement.
Humanity hasn't been part of the evolution for the last 7000 years. I won`t expect much then.
there's no natural evolution of human systems. only planning and action.
i see evolution as an all encompassing process where peoples actions and planning collide with other peoples actions and planning. intelligence is a part of evolution in my eyes and so are we.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 5568693212
in intelligence, once you make an inroads, you put all your people inside and then, control the operation. you don't just give people dangerous weapons without guidance. they might accidently hit your interests. once you get inside, why leave?
The hamas was not trained and directly funded by the mosad, it was just given a "push in the *right* direction" so to speak...
they recruit the angry and ignorant, undernourished, low intelligence types and screw them over with suicidal actions.
who is "They"? i think each organization that wants power will do just that - recruit the uneducated people - the masses.
its the basis of 99.9999% of all business plans. thats mostly why we have presets :P
this same exact farce plays out everywhere, this is not a unique example. you just happen to be the unfortunate guy caught up in one of the hot spots. i think it sucks, personally. i think it sucks for every actual human being over there and i realize that it's a gross understatement.
yes it sucks, but i'm not sure it sucks more than most places on earth. we just get the dubious "honor" of being the center of the world news. unlike Somalia, Congo, Sudan, Afghanistan, Georgia and many many many many more war stuck places where people are being killed by the hundreds of thousands and millions. and for sure it doesn't suck like living in gaza, with or without war. (the west bank is a different story, and this is where most of the palestinians reside btw).
Red, i don't condone shooting rockets or dropping bombs, but if someone directly tries to kill you, and you must defend yourself, i pray that you are able to do so without killing him. if you must, i'm sorry, but you must.
i condone any kind of violence ofcourse, but it doesnt often sync with reality. i think that in principle when someone tries to kill you today, he may turn out to be your best friend in the future. killing does not solve anything. I accept israel's claim of self defense, but i don't accept the interpretation of it one bit. in my eyes self defense means something else than an open war.
hamas is not the real target, however, although some idiot in the street might be. in this way, i'm in exactly the same situation as you. i'm in an actual battlezone(pretty quite lately, though) and i'll bet i know plenty who have been shot or killed, and added those known by those i know, more deaths than hamas ever caused. America is the exact same system, but your ghettos are uglier.
where is that may i ask, can you tell more?

gaza is not ours. it has never been and never will be. (i hope)
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Re: here it goes again

Post by Shroomz~> »

ReD_MuZe wrote:
Shroomz~> wrote:Also, did you read the article I posted above regarding the billions of dollars of Palestinian gas reserves that appear to be a possible reason for the IL stranglehold on their fishing waters?
i don't buy that. i think this is more a "strategical" issue than a financial one.
I'm not saying they're the sole root cause of what's happening in Gaza, but the gas reserves off the coast are a very intriguing issue given that Egypt cut off the flow of gas to IL. :P
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Shroomz~>
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Re: here it goes again

Post by Shroomz~> »

ReD_MuZe wrote:
Sorry, but people profiting from the war in Gaza does have something to do with it. It stinks of it & it's multi-faceted with no one simple answer unfortunately. There's an absolute multitude of reasons for what's going on there that make more sense than the official spin.
yes many reasons. one is obvious - israel gets bombed israel attacks.
I don't buy that. Certainly not in it's simplest, most obvious form.
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Re: here it goes again

Post by Shroomz~> »

ReD_MuZe wrote:google is not censored here. i can read every peace of BS on the net.
why don't you google "the truth about the holocaust" and see where that gets you.
or maybe "the truth about god"
anybody claiming to know the truth about such complicated events is a liar.
Sorry Assaf, but I think you're completely missing the point of me suggesting that particular google search. The point isn't to get the 'truth' per se, but rather to bring up some interesting information & articles on the subject. It does in fact bring up all sorts of BS propaganda on the issue in amongst some pretty interesting information. You just need to wade through it.
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Re: here it goes again

Post by Shroomz~> »

ReD_MuZe wrote:i am not defending israel at all. i don't think you even read my posts fully, but just get angry by several out of context sentences, due to some anti-israeli propaganda that came your way.
You ARE defending Israel, which you're completely within your rights to do & I'm not trying to put you down for doing it either. I did read your posts fully & some out of context sentences & some anti-Israeli propaganda that came my way aren't what make me angry at all. Excessive use of military force for what are probably VERY corrupt undisclosed reasons, the use of seriously dodgy weapons by the US & IL and the killing of thousands & thousands of innocent people are what make me angry. If some insane suicide bomber bombs a bus load of people in IL that makes me angry as well. It's worth noting though, that up until this latest episode in Gaza there hadn't been any major suicide bombings in IL for a couple of years because a guy in Hamas (forget his name now) had made sure that those had all but stopped, but IL have just killed the same guy in Gaza that was behind those suicide bombings being stopped.
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Re: here it goes again

Post by Shroomz~> »

ReD_MuZe wrote:in my opinion your style does not help the situation one bit. it is people like me, and my parallels in palestine who are the hope for peace. people who understand that putting the past behind us is the only way to walk forward. spreading one-sided disinformation will never help the cause of peace. zeitgeist and the likes produce only hate, incite for revolutions on the expense of the majority, and make uninformed people think they know everything.
Fair enough Assaf, I better leave it at that, since I wouldn't want to be making the situation in Gaza or IL any worse with my misguided opinions. :P

cheers,
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ReD_MuZe
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Re: here it goes again

Post by ReD_MuZe »

sorry for being harsh in that earlier post, but i felt being pushed to the wall so to speak. and i still am.

If you think i am defending israel, and 90 % in israel will interpret my words here as anti-israeli where does that leave me?
while i am defending israel as my country, i do not defend the war or my government for their ill doings. i condone the war. and i wanted it to stop before it began. do you defend the hamas?

I read all of the conspiracy theories regarding israel of-course. there are always some grains of truths in them. but just grains. being close to the media i know exactly how things can be manipulated. i know reality is much more convoluted than people would like it to be. i don't buy the evil story. not for hamas and not for israel.

Don't expect me to give a good excuse for every stupid action my government is doing. you are just asking over and over to give you the versions of the israeli side and then accuse me of supporting israel. not gonna work anymore. :P

maybe try bringing a balanced report. for instance look for what the israelis have to say about that person they killed. i assure you that the muslim agenda is just as corrupt and evil (and i believe it is more) than our government. the underdog is not always the right side. sometimes both sides are wrong.
Last edited by ReD_MuZe on Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ReD_MuZe
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Re: here it goes again

Post by ReD_MuZe »

Fair enough Assaf, I better leave it at that, since I wouldn't want to be making the situation in Gaza or IL any worse with my misguided opinions. :P
i was talking about the style not the message.
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Re: here it goes again

Post by Shroomz~> »

ReD_MuZe wrote:you are just asking over and over to give you the versions of the israeli side and then accuse me of supporting israel. not gonna work anymore. :P
Now you're twisting things again Assaf, which you've done quite a lot when replying to me in this thread. I haven't asked you 'over and over to give' me 'the versions of the israeli side and then accuse' you 'of supporting israel'. I asked you once if you would give a multi-faceted IL point of view & by that I meant could you tell us what the different varied opinions were over there. That's why I mentioned the far right IL opinion on Gaza that I had read several articles about. That wasn't enough though & I know that. I thought you could maybe fill us in on the different opinions there since you're better placed to know about them.

& although it was a silly question that I shouldn't need to answer... no I don't defend 'the Hamas'!! Why would you even ask me that when you know I haven't defended them once here? Because I haven't condemned them?
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Re: here it goes again

Post by ReD_MuZe »

so you did not look for a reply when posting all those one sided anti-israeli posts?

while you do not defend the hamas, and have not condoned them, i do not defend the war and my government and i condone them.
you treat my criticism towards our government as a lip tax or something completely ignoring it just like you choose to ignore the cause for this war, or the misgivings of the hamas.

the only reason for me to write the "official israeli side" is the stream of extremely unbalanced "zeitgeist" style conspiracy theories about israel (which is acting in a brutal manner just like any other country would), which in my opinion are not only silly and unrealistic, they are also inciting hate, and draw the focus of the real problems that we have here. (some of which have been deleted).

i don't know the full truth, in fact the more i know the farther the truth slips away.
however one thing i do know. the truth lies in the greys. never in the whites or blacks.
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Re: here it goes again

Post by Liquid Len »

Just for clarity's sake, I think that Red_Muze means "condemn" not "condone". Amirite?
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Shroomz~>
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Re: here it goes again

Post by Shroomz~> »

ReD_MuZe wrote:so you did not look for a reply when posting all those one sided anti-israeli posts?
You're twisting it again. Be fair now. My posts haven't been anti-Israeli at all. Anti-Israeli heavy handed military action yes, but anti-Israeli no...
ReD_MuZe wrote:while you do not defend the hamas, and have not condoned them, i do not defend the war and my government and i condone them.
you treat my criticism towards our government as a lip tax or something completely ignoring it just like you choose to ignore the cause for this war, or the misgivings of the hamas.
Hold on a minute Assaf. I haven't asked you for anything here (other than last night when I asked you for varied Israeli opinions/viewpoints), nor have I expected anything of you, yet you insinuate that I actually have, while expecting of me that I should be condemning Hamas because I'm condemning Israel's extreme military action. I don't really get it.
ReD_MuZe wrote:the only reason for me to write the "official israeli side" is the stream of extremely unbalanced "zeitgeist" style conspiracy theories about israel (which is acting in a brutal manner just like any other country would), which in my opinion are not only silly and unrealistic, they are also inciting hate, and draw the focus of the real problems that we have here. (some of which have been deleted).
Well, we all have our opinions.

FWIW, I have no idea why I was stupid enough to get involved in this discussion. I quite obviously can't resist a nice big juicy carrot. :P :P

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Re: here it goes again

Post by Shroomz~> »

Liquid Len wrote:Just for clarity's sake, I think that Red_Muze means "condemn" not "condone". Amirite?
Just a typo Len. Maybe that's what the confusion is, but I doubt it.
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Re: here it goes again

Post by ReD_MuZe »

oops ur right i meant condemn.... silly me...

Well i'm not trying to twist anything. im saying what i feel. the fact you are not asking for a direct reply in the forums threads does not mean you do not seek it. this forum is about discussion is it not? who were these posts intended to if not me amongst the rest of the people here?

Maybe your posts are not anti-israeli to you, but in my eyes they make israel look like the only bad thing that happened to the middle east. perhaps the same sentences can mean several things at once. however, we both know the hamas can stop the attack at any time it chooses by stopping the rockets. they could have avoided the whole deal quite easily. and while it doesn't diminish the wrongfulness of the war, it does mean that this war is not about evil vs. good. but more like dangerous stupidity vs. dangerous stupidity (or evil vs. evil whichever you like).

i think people like you should speak out against the war, against the violence, and even against our government - its all very important!. but the unbalanced nature your posts render them kind of ineffective, just giving reason to continue and fight israel, the evil oppressor.

i guess we both cant resist the big carrot, but remember who has to eat it every day...
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Re: here it goes again

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