here it goes again

[spacef]

"Human shield" strategy is true. out of palestine, those guys are recruiting teenagers to get blown as some kind of martyrs....
I agree with many things Assaf said on this thread. There are rumors about financial motives behind this war - i don't even dare to repeat as it's shocking and don't beleive myself,, if they are true, we live in a more cynical world i would ever been able to imagine in nightmares. It is true that there is wealth in destruction and horror too.
Just wanted to thank Assaf for the hopes he has, very courageous.
Cheers

[next to nothing]

"Yeh, nice explosion, was on the papers today. described as several side explosions of a street-mine hitting weaponry hidden in civilian homes."

If I read this sentence correctly i sincerly hope that the Israeli people, with all their army experience, sees through it. The whole function of a street mine (as in anti-tank mine) is its directional power, going upwards towards its target for penetration power. if they are talking about anti personell mines, the explosion is way to small to trigger anything around it (they are made to blow your legs off, not kill you). What you are seeing here is probably an air launched bomb, the large firebolt you see is to create underpressure (or rather vacuum) underneath it for maximum damage.

By the way i see the UN HQ/Aid stock is on fire. nice touch. Somehow i don't think IL likes them, even though Ehud Barak has claimed it was a mistake that wont happen again.

[garyb]

was, in the 80's.
yep. just shows you how stupid our gvmnt is.

not stupid, wicked.

they're willing to play both sides, which costs lives on both sides...

[Shroomz~>]

Interesting !!! -

BACKGROUND:

There is an historical connection between the Gazan community and the off shore fishery. In recent times some 3000 fishermen in over 700 boats made their livelihood in the waters off the shores of Gaza. Before 1978 when the fishing area included the sea off the Sinai coastline the area covered some 75,000 square kilometers.

The larger boats are about 20 meters in length and usually carry a crew of 7. They are typically trawlers using downriggers to lower their nets to the ocean bed. Currently their main catch is bream or sardines that average between 8 and 14 inches. The smallest craft are rowboats normally used to deploy nets a few hundred meters off shore. The nets are then hauled in by hand from the beach. These catches are very modest.

After the 1994 GAZA-JERICHO AGREEMENT the fishermen were free to use a corridor extending 20 nautical miles from the Gaza shore bounded by restricted zones to the north and south abutting Israeli and Egyptian waters. After the UN's 2002 Bertini proposal the approved location was reduced to an area within 12 nautical miles of the coast. More recently the area available has been reduced to 300 square kilometers.

Beginning in late 2000 the Israeli military began a campaign of intimidation and harassment against the fishing boats that ventured near or beyond a 6 nautical mile limit. No formal notice or explanation was ever given to the Palestinians. Instead the regulation was written and enforced by Israeli machine guns and water cannons. At least 14 fishermen have been killed by the Israelis, over 200 injured and numerous boats damaged or impounded.

WHY?

In the late 1990's the British Gas Group (BG Group) discovered a vast deposit of natural gas under the waters off Gaza: Over 1 trillion cubic feet equal to 150 million barrels of oil was estimated to be there. A significantly smaller deposit was also found in nearby Israeli waters.

On 11/8/99 Chairman Yasser Arafat signed an agreement giving BG Group 90 percent interest and 10 per cent to Consolidated Contractors Company, an Athens based Palestinian entity connected to the PLO. A final allocation of the rights continues to be contested between BG Group, Israel, Egypt and the Palestinians in obscured ongoing negotiations. The Israelis began their program of killing and harassing the Gazan fishermen only after the discovery of the natural gas deposits. It is a reasonable assumption that the two events are linked: That the Israelis are asserting control over this resource valued at over 4 billion dollars; And that they are intent on denying any benefit to the Palestinians regardless of who controls Gaza.

TIMELINE:

-May 4, 1994: PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat and Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin signed The Gaza-Jericho Agreement. Article XI established three Maritime Activity Zones that extended out to sea 20 nautical miles from the coast of Gaza. Two narrow Zones running parallel to the boundaries of Egyptian and Israeli waters were designated No Fishing Areas. Under the terms of the Agreement the larger remaining Zone "will be open for fishing, recreation and economic activities." The Gazan fishermen operated freely for the next 6 years within this Zone with no major confrontations with the Israelis.

- Late 1990's: The British Gas Group (later BG Group) began explorations off the Israeli and Gazan coasts for natural gas. A modest deposit was found in Israeli waters close to the Gaza Marine Activity Zone. A significantly larger deposit was found in a section of this Zone centered some 10 to 15 nautical miles offshore. It was estimated that there were sufficient reserves to generate electric power for all Palestinian needs for a decade and still have surplus to export.

- July 25, 2000: Yasser Arafat walked out on the Camp David meeting.

- September 27, 2000: Yasser Arafat traveled 19 miles off the Gaza coast to light the first flare stack flowing from the natural gas. An Israeli oil consortium had contested the Palestinian rights to the gas but was overturned in an Israeli court. The initial agreement with the BG Group gave them 90 percent interest and 10 percent to Consolidated Contractors Company, an Athens based Palestinian group. They and the Palestinian Investment Fund (PIF) had the option to later assume up to 40 per cent interest.

Initially BG Group negotiated with Egypt to run an undersea pipeline designed to import the gas. Under pressure from Tony Blair BG Group was forced to negotiate with the Israelis instead. Those discussions, which centered over price, have been so long and contentious that BG Group closed their Israel office and again began dealing with Egypt.

- September 28, 2000: Ariel Sharon visited the Temple Mount despite warnings by Arafat and other leading Palestinians. The predictable riots and deaths following this provocation marked the beginning of 2nd Intafada. Sharon was elected Prime Minister in February 2001. He vowed that Israel would never buy gas from the Palestinians. After the outbreak of the 2nd Intafada the Israelis began an ever-tightening blockade of Gaza with fewer and fewer trucks allowed to enter.

- Late 2000: Attacks by Israeli patrol boats against Gazan fishing boats began and have continued to this day. These attacks began 5 years before Hamas freely won the legislative elections on January 25, 2006. It is apparent that these assaults on the fishermen had nothing to do with security or with Hamas. Instead it had everything to do with a 4 billion dollar resource belonging to the Palestinians.

- August, 2002: In response to a request from Prime Minister Sharon, the Secretary-General of the United Nations appointed Ms. Catherine Bertini as his Personal Humanitarian Envoy to asses humanitarian needs of the Palestinians. At the end of her visit to the area she made numerous recommendations including one that dealt with the fishing boats. In her report she included a list of "Previous Commitments Made by Israel". Item 2 states: "The fishing zone for Palestinian fishing boats off the Gaza coast is 12 nautical miles. This policy needs to be fully implemented." But never was!

- Although the attacks occurred throughout the Maritime Activity Zone they were more common once a boat had passed the 6-mile limit. Most boats now carry GPS's in order to know their exact positions. Some captains are intimidated by the Israeli threat and turn back before crossing the line. Others go further despite the increased danger from the Israelis. The fishery closer to shore has collapsed after so many boats were forced to operate in such a limited area. In addition the waters near shore are polluted due to sewage pouring in from broken pipes. One more consequence of an infrastructure crippled by the Israelis. Since the outset of these assaults at least 14 fishermen have been killed and over 200 injured. Boats continue to be damaged or impounded.

9/12/05 - Israel announced that it had ended the occupation of Gaza and withdrew its forces. It maintained control of land and sea-lanes as well as all border crossings on land.

1/25/06 - Hamas won 76 of 132 seats in the Palestinian Legislative Council in an open honest election. After a bloody battle with Fatah elements Hamas took control of Gaza. Israel and the United States branded Hamas a terrorist organization and have had no public contact with it thereafter. The restrictions at the border crossings were tightened further with severe limitations on the traffic of produce, materials, medicines and people. Anemia and malnutrition were widespread as a result.

Early June 2008 - Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak instructed the Israel Defense Forces to covertly prepare for an invasion of Gaza to be known as operation "Cast Lead".

June, 2008 -Israel contacted BG Group to propose reopening negotiations over the natural gas deposits. Actual negotiations overseen by Ehud Olmert were taking place in October, 2008. It appears that Israel wished to reach an agreement with BG Group before the secretly planned invasion began.

6/19/08 - Hamas and Israel signed a 6-month truce agreement calling for cessation of rocket firings by Hamas and military incursions by Israel. In May over 300 rockets had been fired. In September only 5 to 10 were fired. Hamas was lead to believe that significant increase in shipments would be allowed to enter Gaza. Before the truce roughly 70 trucks were allowed to bring provisions into Gaza each day compared with some 900 permitted before the Israeli clamp down in 2000. Hamas believed that a similar flow of traffic would be restored. Instead Israel allowed only an increase from the 70 to 90 trucks.

11/5/08 - IDF forces killed 6 Palestinians while supposedly searching for a tunnel passing under the border. In effect the truce was over after this provocation. During the next 5 weeks 237 rockets were fired into Israel compared with the 5 to 10 fired in September. The increase in rocket fire was Israel's public justification for launching the long planned "Cast Lead" invasion.

11/18/08 - An Egyptian court ordered the government to stop shipping natural gas to Israel. Under a 2005 agreement Egypt agreed to deliver 1.7 billion cubic meters of gas to Israel over a 15-year period. The gas began to flow in May, 2008. A lawsuit followed seeking to bar delivery since the Parliament had not given its approval. The court supported the lawsuit and its findings are being appealed. The potential cutoff of the gas from Egypt gave Israel even more incentive to take control of the Gaza Marine deposits and to deny any benefits to Palestinians whether Hamas or Fatah.

11/18/08 - Israeli naval vessels attacked three Palestinian fishing boats located seven miles off the coast of Deir Al Balah, clearly within the limits permitted in the 1994 Gaza-Jericho Agreement. Fifteen Palestinian fishermen and three international observers were kidnapped and taken with the boats to Israel. The fishermen were held for a day and then released. The boats were eventually returned but damaged. The internationals were jailed in Israel for many days and then deported.

12/27/08 - Israel began bombing Gaza as phase 1 of operation "Cast Lead". The vast natural gas deposits of Gaza Marine 1 and 2 rest a few miles offshore.

To the victor the spoils one more time? Only time and perhaps the conscience of the world will determine.

Although the violations of law and basic human rights to the Gazan fishermen pale in comparison to the horrors that have unfolded they should not be forgot or forgiven. Based on the limited reports coming from Gaza due to Israeli restrictions on journalists it is possible that there are no fishing boats left or even a harbor. Perhaps justice will never be served on those who initiated and perpetuated these assaults. But let us never forget that the greed and self-interest embodied in these policies are those of a country that has lost its shame. Has lost its honor.

David K. Schermerhorn has traveled on humanitarian missions to Gaza on three separate occasions in recent months aboard Free Gaza (http://www.freegaza.org) boats. He spent spent two days aboard fishing boats that were harassed by Israeli machine gun fire and assaulted by water cannons.

[Shroomz~>]

NOT FOR THE FAINTER !!!!

[Shroomz~>]

On January 9, Reuters reported that the Pentagon plans "to deliver hundreds of tons of (new) arms (and munitions) to Israel from Greece later this month." Indications are that "hazardous material" is involved, including explosive substances and detonators.

Weapons and munitions shipments generally signal future, not ongoing conflicts. This one, and perhaps others, may be for a larger-scale regional war, but it's too early to conclude it. Yet threats continue to be made against Iran, Syria and Hezbollah so planning for more confrontation is very possible.

On January 13, Haaretz reported:

"A US military plan to ship munitions from a Greek port to a US stockpile in Israel has been cancelled due to the conflict in the Gaza Strip," Pentagon officials said. Take it with a grain of salt, and follow-up comments indicated a delay, not cancellation, and "EUCOM (the US European Command) is developing an appropriate course of action to deliver the items to the US stockpile in Israel. (No information will be provided) on timelines or possible routes for obvious reasons of operations security."

The whole article - The Blame Game in Gaza: Covering for Israel, Concealing War Crimes by Stephen Lendman

[ReD_MuZe]

you believing or not will make no difference this is a known fact the hamas does not hide it.
the sandbag phrase was a metaphor i guess. if you want ill ask for more details when he gets back.

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/Hamas-Human-Shields.jpg
http://blog.camera.org/archives/HumanShields.jpg
http://passtheammo.com/wp-content/uploa ... hields.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J08GqXMr3YE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0wJXf2nt4Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhk9jJW0m5k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00B3o0gBKJo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBYtij4Q7sE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_OGhj43GAE
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1047832/h ... de_bomber/

even if there ARE weapons being stored in civilian homes in Gaza, that still doesn't excuse Israel's excessive methods of dealing with the problem in my mind.

sure there are if you look at the video in my last post (inside hamas) you will see weapons in mosqs and homes. while it doesn't excuse israels excessive methods in our minds, it does excuse them in the minds of the people living in the bombarded area (half of israel) and then some. and they have a point by claiming that they owe nothing to those who plan their deaths.

so what if people made money from 9/11 (how did that come into the story all of a sudden?) for every action there is a reaction. every even makes some people loose money and some earn money. it has nothing to do with what's going on in here.

google
"first comes saturday then comes sunday"
we hear this phrase even in jaffa.

[Shroomz~>]

Assaf, since you're living there & willing to talk about it, how about giving us a multi-faceted perspective from where you see it? For example, is it true that many on the right there would give the Palestinians absolutely nothing, no land concessions, no outside commerce, nothing & would be happy to see them either fenced into military controlled camps with blockades controlling (or should I say limiting) their trade or preferably removed from the Palestinian territories altogether through whatever means necessary?

Also, did you read the article I posted above regarding the billions of dollars of Palestinian gas reserves that appear to be a possible reason for the IL stranglehold on their fishing waters?

[Shroomz~>]

so what if people made money from 9/11 (how did that come into the story all of a sudden?) for every action there is a reaction. every even makes some people loose money and some earn money. it has nothing to do with what's going on in here.

Sorry, but people profiting from the war in Gaza does have something to do with it. It stinks of it & it's multi-faceted with no one simple answer unfortunately. There's an absolute multitude of reasons for what's going on there that make more sense than the official spin.

[garyb]

911 was an inside job. the fact that it made people rich is the sign of corruption.

[Shroomz~>]

google
"first comes saturday then comes sunday"

google
'truth about the war in Gaza' - Wait a minute, I'm forgetting that you'll be using an IL version of google. How could I have missed that... Doh!

[Shroomz~>]

Assaf, another question:- Is it true that Olmert said at a speech in Ashkelon that he told Bush that the US could not vote yes for the UN ceasefire treaty? I must admit, that it was of no big surprise to me to learn that the US were the only country from 15 to 'abstain' from voting for a ceasefire, thus giving a resolution such a profound handicap that it was worthless... Not that UN resolutions & treaties have any real worth anyway I guess..

[valis]

I don't think it's fair to ask Assaf to be an apologist for things he has little to no control over. Discuss his opinions vs. your opinions by all means, but asking him to defend Isreal's actions in general is a bit inflammatory imo.

[Shroomz~>]

I don't think it's fair to ask Assaf to be an apologist for things he has little to no control over. Discuss his opinions vs. your opinions by all means, but asking him to defend Isreal's actions in general is a bit inflammatory imo.

I'm not asking Assaf to be an apologist Valis. I'm also not asking him to defend Isreal's actions in general since he's already doing that of his own will to a certain extent. You can't not support the actions of your government & call for peace at the same time as supporting those same actions.. unless... ehm.. no, never mind.

[ReD_MuZe]

Assaf, since you're living there & willing to talk about it, how about giving us a multi-faceted perspective from where you see it? For example, is it true that many on the right there would give the Palestinians absolutely nothing, no land concessions, no outside commerce, nothing & would be happy to see them either fenced into military controlled camps with blockades controlling (or should I say limiting) their trade or preferably removed from the Palestinian territories altogether through whatever means necessary?

yes the extreme nationalistic right. completely true - the cancers of our society. but even so our extreme right is not as extreme as the hamas. they are a small monitory and are not in power and never will be thank goodness.

Also, did you read the article I posted above regarding the billions of dollars of Palestinian gas reserves that appear to be a possible reason for the IL stranglehold on their fishing waters?

i don't buy that. i think this is more a "strategical" issue than a financial one.

[ReD_MuZe]

Sorry, but people profiting from the war in Gaza does have something to do with it. It stinks of it & it's multi-faceted with no one simple answer unfortunately. There's an absolute multitude of reasons for what's going on there that make more sense than the official spin.

yes many reasons. one is obvious - israel gets bombed israel attacks.

google
'truth about the war in Gaza' - Wait a minute, I'm forgetting that you'll be using an IL version of google. How could I have missed that... Doh!

google is not censored here. i can read every peace of BS on the net.
why don't you google "the truth about the holocaust" and see where that gets you.
or maybe "the truth about god"
anybody claiming to know the truth about such complicated events is a liar.

Assaf, another question:- Is it true that Olmert said at a speech in Ashkelon that he told Bush that the US could not vote yes for the UN ceasefire treaty? I must admit, that it was of no big surprise to me to learn that the US were the only country from 15 to 'abstain' from voting for a ceasefire, thus giving a resolution such a profound handicap that it was worthless... Not that UN resolutions & treaties have any real worth anyway I guess..

i don't understand what you expect. each person in this event is handling according to his agendas.

I'm not asking Assaf to be an apologist Valis. I'm also not asking him to defend Isreal's actions in general since he's already doing that of his own will to a certain extent. You can't not support the actions of your government & call for peace at the same time as supporting those same actions.. unless... ehm.. no, never mind.

i am not defending israel at all. i don't think you even read my posts fully, but just get angry by several out of context sentences, due to some anti-israeli propaganda that came your way.

however yes. i am on israel's side because i have no were else to go. israel is part of who i am it is my home. and while i go to the streets and protest against the actions of my government i cant say the same about the muslims around the world.
i will not support one-sided bashing of my own country. especially through conspiracy BS presented as "facts".

in my opinion your style does not help the situation one bit. it is people like me, and my parallels in palestine who are the hope for peace. people who understand that putting the past behind us is the only way to walk forward. spreading one-sided disinformation will never help the cause of peace. zeitgeist and the likes produce only hate, incite for revolutions on the expense of the majority, and make uninformed people think they know everything.

do you think confronting me with the atrocities my government which i don't even support - will make me think the hamas is legitimate ? do you think that your stream of information is more accurate than mine? we are on the same internet. the only difference is i live here, with the arabs. i talk to palestinians every day, i have some arab friends. i have friends killed in war. and i have been through several wars.

if you are expecting simple truths, and picking sides, you are in the wrong conflict.
my side is against the hamas, and against the extreme right in my country. for a civilized law and secular society.
my side is for uniting the moderates on all sides in peace.
my side is for anyone who goes by live and let live.

[Tau]

I have to say something here that might not sound too good. I do this with extreme sadness, because I am tired and disgusted at the current state of affairs. I do not see a difference between jews, arabs, catholics or any other corporate religions or ideologies - they do not care for peace, they do not care for humanity, they do not care for truth or anything except themselves and their own personal power and agenda. So here goes: I think that IL government is trying their very best to blow up their own country and their own people. Because after Sunday, comes Monday, and so forth and so on.

For these guys in power, be it IL, Syria, USA, or the EU, war is just fun and games, and ordinary people, be them jewish, palestinian, portuguese, african or american, ordinary people like you and me are just a nuisance. Just fuel for the fire. And the sooner "they" get rid of "us", the better for them.

The real enemies of the people hide behind them. We are puppets. I bomb you so you bomb me back. Of course, I'll be in a bunker - it'll be my countrymen to get blown, and I'll be outraged and shocked, and promise retaliation.

This is how I see it. But let me state this clearly: IL isn't any worse than any other country - I'm talking about the ruling warlords - it's all the same club, skulls on strings around their necks.

I feel for you Assaf. And for every other person that's kept in HELL for the sake of whatever reason they come up with. I am sorry to be writing this, but it is how I feel

[ReD_MuZe]

we are not in hell. if it were hell we would be running away. however this is home.

maybe living in such a small country makes it impossible for people here to believe the conspiracy theories going around. in my experience nobody is that smart, nor that evil.

dismissing war as a government game is ignoring the real problem.

[braincell]

Minutes ago, in his farewell speech to our nation president George W. Bush said:

"The greatest threat to our nation is another terrorist attack."


That is simply not true. There are many threats to our citizens but statistically, terrorists have never killed very many people in comparison to all the other horrible ways to die prematurely. Sadly, politicians and the media and arms dealers and the military like to exaggerate threats. I suspect the same is true in Israel.

[garyb]

in my experience nobody is that smart, nor that evil.

dismissing war as a government game is ignoring the real problem.

yet you admit that hamas has been funded by mossad....

you are a good person as are most Israelis and indeed most people. it's hard for you to imagine the behavior of someone evil. that's pretty normal.