Latency issues with ASIO vs. Mixer

steffensen · Post by **steffensen** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 5:16 am

oh, and i have an external synth to, that i want to join the party. that isnt really possible with XTC.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 5:23 am

well, if you have a fixed delay of 1/64 note and this is caused by whatever in Logic - let Logic insert a 1/64 midi delay in the CWA synths line. Afaik it can do all these tricks with it's environment feature (I don't have Logic myself).

call yourself lucky that you (obviously) never had to deal with pre- and postroll delays to sync tape recorders. Anything reaching from Adat to Video...

cheers, Tom

steffensen · Post by **steffensen** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 5:25 am

yeah.. i consider myself very lucky indeed then.

i guess fiddling with midi delay is the right thing to do then.. hard to know exactly how many ms the delay is etc.. but i will listen closely and try to figure it out.

Post by **garyb** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:26 am

i think i see what is happening here. what is out of sync is your monitoring. if you use the scope mixer, THAT is where you monitor and you hear no delay. if you monitor in your sequencer, there MUST be a big delay as the audio must travel TO the sequencer and back before you hear it. use the mixer and monitor everything in scope. if you want to use logic's effects on your synths record them as audio.

*edit* if you don't want to record of the mixer's bus(i use the 2448), then route to a mixer AND directly to asio(you can make multiple connections off your synth's outputs).

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: garyb on 2004-09-10 12:28 ]</font>

steffensen · Post by **steffensen** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:30 am

well, i'm never ever gonna record anything but vocals. final.

it may be that the delay is in cause of the monitoring thru logic, but if there is no other way, i have to stick with this.

i have put midi delay to -30ms on every cw synth channel in logic now, and it seems to sync quite good with my vsti's.

steffensen · Post by **steffensen** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:33 am

its important for me that eeverything goes thru logic, so i can get a grip of the whole mix and how it sounds in the final stage to, thats also where i master etc.

so having one synth there and another over there, just sounds to spacey and flipped. i want a firm and stable soundpicture/setup.

Post by **garyb** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:38 am

don't monitor in logic then. you must have set scope's ulli at 13ms(2x 13ms = 26ms delay). recording synths will free up resources and sound better(one engine handling all the audio), but do it however you like.......

steffensen · Post by **steffensen** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:57 am

if i dont monitor in logic, will i still hear everything i do in logic correctly, and the bounce from logic, will it still sound the same?

i have ULLI set at 7ms by the way.

i see no other option for this i'm afraid. recording is not a solution for me.

steffensen · Post by **steffensen** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 12:00 pm

also, if i rout my cw synths both in the mixer as well as in the asio dest, wont i get 2 diferent outs from them? i mean, i have them on Aux channels in logic, wont i hear them both thru logic AND from the mixer..? or am i completely lost here?

Post by **garyb** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 12:18 pm

you're right on both counts, of course. if you won't record your synths and you must use your sequencer as a realtime effects box(it was not designed for this), you will just have to suffer.

as someone else suggested, you could use scope effects, they are good. otherwise, you will have to deal with the limitations of the personal computer. windows is not a realtime os. everything, every process happens sequentially......

steffensen · Post by **steffensen** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 12:27 pm

well, i have a pretty powerful PC.

its a shame not using it, as well as my vsti's.

if CW really thought everyone wants to record scope synth to audio into their seq, and work that way..or how they thought everything should work..then they are mad.

realtime realtime realtime. thats all that counts.

steffensen · Post by **steffensen** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 12:29 pm

perhaps XTC mode is something for me anyway.

or maybe not.

Post by **garyb** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 12:33 pm

how about real world?
recording means just that and that's how every working artist, producer and musician does it....but, as i said, whatever works for you......you could use a simple vst host to handle the vsts, but really this is not a cwa problem. the card may be inside your computer, but the cw synths, mixers and effects ARE external hardware to logic and this makes sense based on the way that computers work.......

steffensen · Post by **steffensen** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 12:40 pm

hehe.. i hear you. yepp, i know CW is like external gear. and thats also how i think about it.. just as i use my external synths also.

but the way i work, demands that i can fiddle around with the knobs on the synths whenever i need to. a little adjustments there and there.. not a possibility when recorded. then you're stuck! if you dont want to record all over again that is...

ah well..
i have set things up now, and i think it works ok. as i want to use cw efx to, i have to record everything i do into soundforge later on, instead of bouncing thru logic.
i hope the sound quality doesnt get affected tho. in logic i dither with power, from 24bit to 16bit.
now i play the song up at 24bit and record it in SF at 16bit. i hope thats allright.. it should be.

i dont feel that i have as much control over things like i felt before when working exclusive in logic, but i also want to use cw efx so..

i dont know if its just me, i LOVE sonalksis EQ and compressor. but the default cw compr and eq, feels a bit more like the real thing? it feels more like hardware heh..? most people say they are bad, but darn.. i like them just as well.

Post by **garyb** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 1:07 pm

makes sense. fiddle with the knobs, automate the changes and THEN record. i mix down into samplitude and i think that sounds much better than logics pwr algo... when it's all recorded, then you might want xtc mode to use ALL of your computer's possibilities in one mixer(logic's)....

steffensen · Post by **steffensen** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 1:12 pm

yes, thats probably a good way to work in. but way to complicated for me. not that its hard to do, but i like to work fast. well..as fast i can.
like.. 1 song in 2 months or so.

i guess i'll stick with the setup i have made now, for the time beeing anyway. as i dont see any other way that works for me, then i dont have much choices either.

valis · Post by **valis** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 4:20 am

With 10 dsps you can't do everything, but between that and your cpu you shouldn't really need to bounce. Imho you just need to work on your signal routing and learn to mix what you need in logic and mix into SFP where u can combine SFP effects and synths. Right now what you're doing is obviously not optimal....as someone else suggested true creativity comes when you accept the limitations of what you have at your disposal and use the strenghts to your advantage.

Plato · Post by **Plato** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 5:24 am

........which means going back to the set-up I suggested....?

steffensen · Post by **steffensen** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 8:07 am

well, i really cant agree with you all here.
i find my setup to be pretty optimal right now.

i have configured it all, so i have the cw synths into logic, and i also can use cw efx in logic. (not using XTC mode)

http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... forum=14&2

this way i have total control over everything, inside of logic. and i also dont have re-record the synths if i plan to change a note or anything else.. live input works best for me.

i really cant figure out a more optimal solution than this.

valis · Post by **valis** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 8:49 am

You can start by measuring the actual latency of your synths in logic ticks.

Fire up Kickme in SFP, create a 1 bar pattern in Logic (midi) with 1 kick per beat. Route everything as you would with any SFP synth (according to your methods) and then record the output into a Logic audio track. Now either trim the audio part or set its quantize point to the start of the first kick, essentially making it perfectly on time.

Now monitor the 'live' SFP Kickme signal as you would any SFP synth with your current setup along with the recorded audio from kickme that you put in 'perfect' time. Listening to the 2 together, adjust the 'Delay' parameter on the midi track that's assigned to the Creamware(Kickme) output until the flamming/phasing is the least noticeable.

This is the value that you can now use to put negative delay on any midi track assigned to an SFP synth that's routed according to your methods. Its still not 100% sample accurate since its measured in logic ticks, but it will be FAR more accurate than shifting the midi 32nds or 64ths.