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Darkrezin , I think you did a good job.
Please continue this discussion. I just know there are more and more people on "our" side of the story each day. But it is a slow process for some to grasp the picture beeing drawn here. I just hope people become more aware of what's going on , and try to have a more open mind. And more important reevalueate things the took for granted.

peace

more about the crusades:
the most remarkable is no. 4.
This one ended up in conquering Konstantinoples 1202.
That was before it became Istanbul (1453).
So this "crusade" had the target to "free" christians.
As you can imagine, this one didn't really support the enthusiasm
for more of these crusades. People are not that dumb, not even in those days.
IMHO the main reason for the crusades has been the power of Cordoba.
European/christian teaching was centered in theology.
All you could study at this time was roman catholic fundamentalism.
The school of Cordoba had philosophy (all classic greeks!), medicine(Galen, Ibn Sina), math, law.
So it was considered "dangerous" (see Abaelard's fate when trying to adapt Aristoteles).
A very interesting teacher there to have a look at is Averroes (Ibn Rusd).

I actually think the crusades were about MONEY and the possibility of having an interesting time in the 40 years or so that you were liable to live for . I saw where the templars invented banking so you could deposit some money with 'em before you left on your pilgrimage to the HOLY land and then get it credited back to you when you got there so no thieving bastard could get their hands on it on the way !! doesn't sound too evil to me...sort of medieval visa
Sigh ...4 young blokes died so that 50 infidels got f....d up on the way to work ....whats RIGHT about this picture ??

There's nothing right about it... no-one ever said it was okay. Far from it.

Anyone who thinks the crusades were all about romantic ideas of freeing Jerusalem from evil muslims, or for facilitating the pilgrimages of good Christians to the holy land, is pretty idealistic..

It's been proven pretty much beyond doubt that the crusader knights had no respect for the religion they served (incidentally, neither did the Hashshashins/Assassins), and were simply in it for the cold hard cash and power (oh and the blood too...)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: darkrezin on 2005-07-14 08:10 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: darkrezin on 2005-07-14 10:23 ]</font>

IMHO things are a bit woven with each other at this time. Some idealistic, most not, especially not in #4. (after finishing, the venetians, who "sponsored" the trip had SOME trouble with the pope. BTW: the horses on top and the pala d'oro -ever seen that one?: a hell lot of gold&jewelery!- inside of the St. Marco basilica were the "winners prices")
I think today it's much more open with the easy "If I don't take it, someone else will" excuse.

Edit: #4 reminds me at the story of the Albigensians: For this "crusade" the pope announced that if you kill one you'll get all the killed one had owned: The best way to collect the weirdest bunch available. One of the lowest down points in european history.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Micha on 2005-07-15 03:59 ]</font>

I agree the war in Afghanistan/Iraq, altough it was set off from the twin towers bloody attack, is a 'democracy lesson' caused lot of thousand innocent victims using hypocritical words as 'enduring freedom', by wich US Government got rid of personalities now rebelled against the same power had created them.
I absolutely not think the blood of Muslim people worth less than Western people's blood. Every day, however, we hear tv news about victims there, and a lot of us are now desensitized.
Beyond the fear for a terroristic attack personally involving me (very few probability my town could be choosed as a target) this episode striked me cause it was against a State containings in itself important positive symbols for my imaginary.
UK is for me the country that procreated and adopted mythical personality in the music scene (I'm thinking about John Lennon, Jimi Hendrix...); the country let grow in itself the punk moviment.
In my head it's like someone put a bomb in the Speaker's Corner, Hyde park.
And I can't forget, although in the past British colonialism was stained with bloody crimes like Zulu massacre, it was able to withdraw in the face of Ghandi pacifism.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Cochise on 2005-07-15 08:50 ]</font>

On 2005-07-15 11:57, stardust wrote:
hmmm...
still not convinced by the money and great fun argument for a crusade.

Why the hack leaving my home for some idealistic bounty promise ?
All were serial killers and mass murder addicts and loved blood ?

Bah...too much of hollywood films.
This is a picture fitting in a 21st century view.

Yes there were political and commercial interests by the sponsors.
No not the crusaders themselves in general.
Very unrealistic.

cheers

You should read some book on those times...life was terrible, average death age was around 30 years old, reality was incredibly violent also at home, and the spectrum of hunger and poverty dominated the lives of the majority.
The Crusades were incredibly tempting because you had food, arms, money and the opportunity to depredate, rape and do whatever you wanted to the defeated populations, and all of that was also blessed by the church and make you gain paradise and honour...if you have the slightest idea of what was the life in Europe for the masses you could understand how war was a privilege.

yes, don't think you are far from that. the "great depression" was not to long ago. the middle class city dweller is always at risk of this. if his masters wish, luxury is removable. it's easy to do when you control the source. before the "dark ages" people lived fairly well in europe. indeed, in rome proper, and many of her possessions, people lived VERY easy lives...

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I must express my condolences to anyone here who knows or is linked to someone who died as part of the very serious game echoed by the 7/7 events
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I would love to have a good rant here, but there's been too many tangents in the thread to be able to summ up all of my views.
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I will say this. The war mongers of this world will get what's coming to them. That is without dought. Unfortunately, many more innocent people will needlessly lose their lives before this world's rich & blood stained leaders are FORCED to see sense, speak the truth, account & pay for their actions & give humanity the freedom & enlightenment it needs for survival.
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The content gathered at the following link has occasional slips of distastefull politics
& religeous undertones, but nonetheless, the content is created by numerous known journalists & compiled with the purpose outlined in the sites' name >>>
<br>
<a href="http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk">www.thetruthseeker.co.uk</a>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: notbobmoog on 2005-07-20 06:17 ]</font>

Notbobmoog - you don't have to apologize for internet sites. In this age of political correctness and the relentless conspiracy-theory industry (for example Alex Jones' sites prisonplanet.com and infowars.com), it is extremely easy for a site to be discredited. If it expresses any view that goes against 'conventional wisdom' then everything it says is immediately discredited.

The article on that site on depleted uranium ammunition tells a sorry tale about high-tech and sub-human approaches to war:

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=3365

I find it disgusting that a country not only exposes their enemy to this poison, but their own troops as well.

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Indeed Darkrezin.
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My mind is jumping back to the film 'In plain sight' which was slated as conspiracy theory.
The counter-attack on it, the propaganda film Fahrenhype 9/11, was the most outrageous & blatently obvious propaganda stunt i've witnessed. It reinforced my belief that it was all a cover-up & that 'In plain sight' spoke many truths. One such truth is the huge & often forgotten question as to why there were strips carpet-bombed through Afganistan. Our governments' answer to this? >>> War on Terror. Well, they sure weren't bombing Cannabis fields, as they need that stuff in a BIG WAY. Yes, they must have been clearing a strip to lay OIL Pipielines, no other reason.
The underhanded B*stards didn't just start bombing strips through a country because they got some fecking 'intel' that bin laden or disty bin was stoting around there waiting to be bombed. Trillions of gallons of oil have been pumped thru Afgan & Iraq, put onto ships & taken to the US. What's up? Not enough oil in forbidden Alaska to keep millions of uneconomic cars, people shifters, jeeps & monster trucks running ?
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The REAL terror is the control we are all under, the hidden agendas, the cover ups, the betrayal of the human race by it's power & money hungry leaders, the 'need to know basis', the founndations of the society we live in, the unlawfull changes to the definition of freedom.
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Sad to say, but not far from the truth.
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Piece

I'm not sure it's that they want the oil necessarily... just that they want *control of the world oil industry*.

Once they have it, they will be able to strengthen their enslavement of the world.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: darkrezin on 2005-07-20 07:51 ]</font>

They have & they already are to almost everyone's loss.
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Make the most of the freedom we have left while it lasts. There's worse to come before the end of the ancient Mayan calender for sure.

Yeah a curiously morbid thought was going through my head about that...

Remember when Nazi Germany held the Olympics? I had a strange thought that it could be a similar thing here in 2012... and it also just happens to be that fateful year in the Mayan calendar...

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If it pisses down & you get half an hour spare type ' 2012 Venus ' into google & take a look at the mathematics & future of our relationship with Venus. Pretty interesting reading. Not that it's all doom & gloom though. You've still got enough time to.... erm do as you will

yeah. that 2012 thingy seems to be a favourite...
didn't know about it and got stuck with this one
http://www.levity.com/eschaton/Why2012.html

a bit long winded, but finally it's pretty amazing that the Mayans could predict a certain astronomic constellation (which had a very special and important meaning for them) with such high accuracy.

Their calendar ends on winter solstice 21 Dec 2012, a day when the sun is positioned exactly in the direction of the center of our galaxy, a very rare event.

btw there's a black hole in that direction, verified according to scientists... hope we didn't pass event horizon or it sends us one of those enormous energy pulses...

well, since we're 26k lightyears away from it, there should be some time left...(more than Bowie's 5 Years) but possibly the Mayans had more information than our humble scientists (they were able to do their number crunching without HP calculators) and picked up the news by something or someone that there's an unpleasant event on it's way...
who knows ?
btw. 'chart 1' in the link above once was used as a proof that the Mayans had (seen) rockets

cheers, Tom

What's really wild, is that nobody can predict what will REALLY happen. If someone is clever enough to definatively work out what will happen, they should perhaps keep it to themselves. I don't think our governments would announce the end of days to be inevitable, for it would only cause boilogical & mental tidle-waves. Nonetheless, the spirit of things would have us believe that acceptance of this event, coupled with global one-ness should see us thru. Sounds to me like some of this was enduced by tripping shamen, eh Terrence ?