Legalized Drugs ???

[garyb]

The Republic is NOT a happy story.
let's do a musical translation of something else....

[David]

But I could swear Yoda was on drugs....

Feel the force

[garyb]

Yoda wasn't on drugs, per se, just herbal hallucinogens.

Darth Vader was addicted to pain killers, however...

i don't think any of that was technically illegal, however.




it's funny, Lucas said that he wrote the Revenge of the Sith about the current political situation(the Sith Lord destroying the Republic and establishing the Empire), yet the Star Wars time line was finished in 1977. hmmm....

[David]

Didn't Lucas also take his ideas from an Akira Kurosawa film, The Hidden Fortress, esp. the android scenes.

The swamp planet in the dagoba system was littered with strange an interesting plants that Yoda was well into concocting starnge potions with, just look what happened to Luke after he went there.

Are you though, refering to the actor Warwick Davis, who played Yoda? I bumped into him once in a memorabilia shop in Truro, Cornwall, UK. The shop was run by one of the Imperial Storm Troopers, no joke. Of course he wasn't dressed in his Star Wars costume but the costume was in the shop, it was one of the Imperial Guards who flanked Darth Vader. The shop was not only dedicated to movie memorabillia but war and period items too.
He'd been in many movies since and had all the photos of him with the main cast of characters, Star Wars included. He loved to talk about his acting roles and the parts he played. I wasn't surprised at the height of Warwick but I shocked the Storm Trooper guy was roughly the same height. I towered above them at 6' 2". You're probably right about his herbal incling as Truro was rife with mushrooms, cacti and datura at that time. It was a good day.

A few years later I met one of the cast of Time Bandits in camera shop in the same town...... now you're gonna think I'm halucinating. But I get the impression Cornwall is where all the little people live, what with their tin mining history, pixies and all

Kurosawa's Hidden Fortress though was an epic story..... as was the Seven Samurai

[valis]

Didn't Lucas also take his ideas from an Akira Kurosawa film, The Hidden Fortress, esp. the android scenes.

Hidden Fortress bears the most obvious resemblance, but supposedly he drew from 2 other Kurosawa movies at least as well. Star Wars also supposedly drew heavily from from Joseph Campbell's "hero myth".

[garyb]

.......
it's funny, Lucas said that he wrote the Revenge of the Sith about the current political situation(the Sith Lord destroying the Republic and establishing the Empire), yet the Star Wars time line was finished in 1977. hmmm....

He has read the books quoted above !

he doesn't need to read them. he has a place at the servant's table. very nice it is....

[garyb]

And Jabba smoked something unidentifieable.

yes, what plant that's smoked in a hookah contains Hut endorphins?

[garyb]

But I get the impression Cornwall is where all the little people live, what with their tin mining history, pixies and all

ahhh Cornwall...special water...

[King of Snake]

I will never forget my brief stay in Zeist years ago, we even got to visit Amsterdam.
We got to visit the Coffee Shops and Cafes along the Amstel, and Drugs were legal, the women were outrageously georgeous, and the people were so friendly to us. Well that was during the Clinton days, I wouldn't even leave the USA while Bush Jr. was in office.
I saw or heard no crime, just a beautiful, peaceful brief visit.

At any rate they have proven that legalised drugs can create revenue for the state, lower crime, etc.
California has a pro Marijuana lobby to legalize and tax dope.
I tend to agree.

just for the record. Marijuana is not actually legalised even in the Netherlands although it's use has been "decriminalised", ie. it's technically illegal but it's tolerated. The problem with the dutch coffeeshop system is that they can legally sell marijuana but they cannot legally buy their stock! So the coffeeshop holders are forced into a semi legal/semi criminal system where they have a "legalised" front door and criminal back door.
Sadly due to the amount of drug tourism at our borders, some border cities are now closing all their coffeeshops because the Belgian authorities are complaining about their own people coming to our coffeeshops and buying weed. (strangely enough they do not seem to have any problem with the belgians selling tons of illegal fireworks to dutch people every new-year ).
With the current central-right christian dominated government I wouldn't be surprised if they would go and try to close all coffeeshops in the country and criminalise marijuana again.

[Shroomz~>]

Hey King, that's pretty hypocritical of the Belgians. Last time I drove across that border it was unmanned - IE it wasn't really a border as such. It was like that for years & years as well, but maybe they've changed it now. It was certainly nothing like crossing the border into Switzerland or most other countries in Europe for that matter. In fact, the more I think about it... Holland may well be the only country in Europe with OPEN borders because they don't have any notable border control on the German border either. Now isn't that strange. Trafficking X, Y & Z is 'illegal', but the borders are open... strange.

[King of Snake]

There are no border controls between the Benelux, Germany and France since the Schengen treaty in 1985.
Actually pretty much the whole EU now has an open (internal) border policy as far as I know.
That doesn't mean that border police does not exist anymore of course. They still operate in proximity of the borders and of course will try to catch drug tourists on their way back.

[Shroomz~>]

There's thousands of vehicles crossing those borders without stopping every second though, so they are basically completely open, which isn't the case if you cross the border between France & Italy, France & Spain, Switzerland & Austria etc etc. Almost all other borders in Europe commonly stop vehicles to check their cargo & documents. Certainly, that was the case 5/6 years ago when I was driving a lot in Europe for exhibitions, but it's maybe changed since then, I'm not sure.

[dawman]

That's for sure K of S..
I was touring with a famous crooner which I am too embarrassed to mention the name of, but we lost half of the Horn Section at the German border due to some feverish Dogs with keen noses..
Subs ( 2nd stringers ) were flown in at an extreme price to the contractor at the last minute from the U.K. as they hang out at the bar the contractor owned....
These guys were so high they thought just because the Hashish they bought came flat pressed in envelopes, that it would be easy to stash in their fakebooks in the ATA flight cases.
Sadly each fakebook has the instrument named on the book so the culprits could hardly claim they were unaware, especially when you could take one look at their faces and droopy eyes, etc.....
That ain't nothing though, at the Canadian border the Mounties took apart my Oberheims and effects untis because their dogs smelled my X-Wife's stash place......thankfully she removed it before I split town.....
This broad would even would take the electrical faceplates off of our walls and stash shit everywhere, often being so stoned she would forget where the shit was.!!!
You could imagine me being a musician trying to explain to the Police, " I didn't know where that came from, it isn't mine, never seen it before."....

[valis]

just for the record. Marijuana is not actually legalised even in the Netherlands although it's use has been "decriminalised", ie. it's technically illegal but it's tolerated. The problem with the dutch coffeeshop system is that they can legally sell marijuana but they cannot legally buy their stock! So the coffeeshop holders are forced into a semi legal/semi criminal system where they have a "legalised" front door and criminal back door.

This parallels what I was saying a few pages back, that finding 'grey areas' in the law so u can hang out & puff some spliffs isn't exactly the same as 'having the right' to legally do something. One party says they'll "look the other way" then the other can still decide to say "no-no-no" and take action or not, as they see fit.

In the city I live in currently cops can by law confiscate small quantities and write a citation instead of hauling you in, but what that really seems to amount to is that if you're polite and the stuff is good enough they'll just take it and issue no citation. And the smokers I know feel more at ease in carrying small quantity, but that also often results in an easy win for any local beat cop they cross. So either 'free pot for the pigs' (to put it glibly) or make a wrong step and they can escalate it up to a secondary misdemeanor.

I think permissiveness like that creates a great atmosphere for people that have legal authority to descend any time they feel like it (after all you're mostly likely guilty of "something" eh?). It might only apply to small things initially, but get people used to 'grey areas' for the small things they do on a day to day basis and it's easier for them to accept the same 'fuzzy logic' when applied to other situations/issue. (For instance the last 1-2 decades of financial trading on Wall Street between the bankers & mortgage companies, it was all completely legal but technically a 'grey area'.)

Of course I realize that all law is subject to interpretation, and that even laws & rights won't necessarily trump someone in a position of power that has it in for yous...but settling for a "nudge nudge wink wink say no more" in legal situations isn't a permanent solution to this 'problem'.

Also I might add that I'm a bit leery of "institutionalize it & tax it" as that's likely to insure the most of the stuff you can come by legally is well below standards of what I would have accepted even as a teenager.

[garyb]

what is a criminal, and what is a criminal mind?
slowly the public is indoctrinated into criminality for acts and thoughts that are not actually criminal in themselves. if civilization is about becoming more "correct" and "civilized", then why would the government create rules that criminalize things that aren't crimes, things that do NOT victimize others? why is the government victimizing the governed and then calling them criminal, when victimization is the criminal act?

the language does not lend itself to rational thought. it leads to rationalized thought.

[FrancisHarmany]

I will never forget my brief stay in Zeist years ago, we even got to visit Amsterdam.
We got to visit the Coffee Shops and Cafes along the Amstel, and Drugs were legal, the women were outrageously georgeous, and the people were so friendly to us. Well that was during the Clinton days, I wouldn't even leave the USA while Bush Jr. was in office.
I saw or heard no crime, just a beautiful, peaceful brief visit.

At any rate they have proven that legalised drugs can create revenue for the state, lower crime, etc.
California has a pro Marijuana lobby to legalize and tax dope.
I tend to agree.

just for the record. Marijuana is not actually legalised even in the Netherlands although it's use has been "decriminalised", ie. it's technically illegal but it's tolerated. The problem with the dutch coffeeshop system is that they can legally sell marijuana but they cannot legally buy their stock! So the coffeeshop holders are forced into a semi legal/semi criminal system where they have a "legalised" front door and criminal back door.
Sadly due to the amount of drug tourism at our borders, some border cities are now closing all their coffeeshops because the Belgian authorities are complaining about their own people coming to our coffeeshops and buying weed. (strangely enough they do not seem to have any problem with the belgians selling tons of illegal fireworks to dutch people every new-year ).
With the current central-right christian dominated government I wouldn't be surprised if they would go and try to close all coffeeshops in the country and criminalise marijuana again.

Yes! Its tollerated...

so you are not allowed to ship drugs into the coffeeshop, but you are allowed to sell it there

once they try to make it illegal, and that will come from European policy I think, not our local goverment, the dutch people will revolt.... We still have some revolution left in our genes, and taking away our dope might just trigger them

[Shroomz~>]

We still have some revolution left in our genes, and taking away our dope might just trigger them

That's probably the only way to trigger them.

[valis]

Hmm

First of all I hope Obama will change it - cause he promised it.

Then this victimizing point is pretty simplistic, since there are no harmless drugs.

Addicts tend to have a need for money to pay the drugs. As long as they got and can keep a good job to pay them, fine.

Alrighty, they might hurt their own health in first place, but in many cases they also impact the rest of their social environment whether it is in some states the health insurance, or the drug related crimes, the pollution and harassment of others etc....

For sure this is usually not recognized by the addicts.

People who are highly disfunctional & nonfunctional are exactly the people who are 'addictive personality types' and imo impact their environment no matter what. But while you might tolerate a relative (or even support them) what about "some other bloke or wanker noone gives a toss about"? The convenient side of the drugs is that it purifies the condition, makes it bear its 'fruit' faster. People who lack in self control do the craziest things on drugs....no?

Speaking from the US perspective specifically, Drug laws are a convenient mechanism for creating the alien among us. It seems like it isn't 'radical' like what our politicians would call 'fundamental' regimes, it's so much more refined. Refined villainizing of the part of the experience that's real (pain..confusion..compassion..connection...) and idolizing the side that serves the purposes of power & control (fear..regret..guilt..disconnection...). Once you enter the wrong side of the legal system the level of "opportunity" for change might seemingly increase for an outsider's perspective, since you've got not much else to do externally but not do what you were doing before. Sure you can't rob, steal, smoke, be rude... But internally? Criminalizing & making someone who has problems the "other" is a method of convenience. Move them off into the bad neighborhoods with houses noone else wants and when they're worse then behind the walls. Purifying a human condition of consumption.

Our 2-party system likes to divide into camps of the conservative "but they have the choice with every step" and the liberal "but the environment chooses for them, they need to be given a chance". So we don't cut off the hand immediately in the US, better to use them as an example to inspire others in far more subtle ways. And in either case it's a matter of not-myself. I am better than that and I wouldn't ever do that (unless it was behind closed doors or with people who are doing it too, maybe...right?)

I know someone in here is reading Robert Anton Wilson right now (and maybe this thread?) but as he puts it using famous artists as example, their use of the drugs wasn't for creative 'vision' it was because of pain and confusion. An obvious insight taken from repeated 'tragic' story of makers of "high" art that we can reflect on for the deeper meanings. The famous dead artist...but woe to those who befriend him in life?

It's usually not a simple affair for someone confused to just stand up all at once and change. So let's make it harder...adding Sadistic Overtones to the opera that's afoot here...

[garyb]

[garyb]

Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

-Tolkien, occult bard...