Pulsarmixer - a "PRO" mixer with phase problems :-).

bendayan · Post by **bendayan** » Sat Oct 06, 2001 8:14 pm

ok , this I think has gone enough as far as I'm concerned.

I have throughly tested the pulsarmixer (from the "pro" pack), and I can easily say pro isnt the exact word for a mixer that has PHASE PROBLEMS!?!?!?.
How the hell are we supposed to use this if channel 13 cannot phase allign with channel 1 ??????? how the hell did they have the nerve to put out this mixer without checking phase cancellation? I did a test in 5 minutes that immediately showed severe phase problem.
Forcing the use of Board1 on channel 1-12 and 13-24 doesnt help.
Stereo pairs along the board at some point also give a phase error.

I dont understand how the hell QA doesnt do this simple phase check that I did in less than 5 minutes!!!
CW, stop calling these devices "PRO" before you do the simplest thing of checking simple phase problems.

sorry, but I am dissapointed. to say the least.

and I can bet my life on it, the next fix wont even begin to touch this

.

Peezahj · Post by **Peezahj** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 12:45 am

How did you "thoroughly" test it in 5 minutes?

Seriously, though, would you mind detailing exactly how you went about this? I'd like to try it for myself.

bendayan · Post by **bendayan** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 3:08 am

thoroughly=more than CW did apparently

. and thats enough. I dont need to keep testing it when in a 5 minute timeline I already found a severe problem.

take a mono channel, feed it to ALL 24 mono pulsarmixer channels.
All channels should be compared in pairs against channel 1. that is: ch1 is always turned on, and you move from ch.2 (only 1 and 2 enabled. -> 1 and 3 , 1-4). etc. now each time, ch1 has no invert of phase, while the other channel are phase inverted.

You will notice something very stange. some channels have correct phase with ch1, while others do not eliminate the sound.

I havent even bothered with buss and aux, but I bet you its even worse ....

phase is one of the basic things you do when checking a mixer. apparently CW doesnt think its important.

.

doing this simple test shows how bad of a job CW did with this. sorry, but it really makes me angry to hear those marketing people call it pro.

ronaldmeij · Post by **ronaldmeij** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 4:46 am

i reply allready at your other post..
read comment... but i think u have a serious problem then because i can say that my sstem is really phase error free.

So please don't start pointing to creamware.
but first be shure it aint u who has this problem.

i just mixed a 44 channel production for a short movie on the pulsar mixer.

No problems ! , so please keep it down , before u are really shure it aint u with the problem.

Ronald Meij.

horrn · Post by **horrn** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 5:01 am

hi b.,

i will check this this afternoon on my system ... it´s easy and like you have said, it´s done in 5 minutes ... after all: if you are mixing 44 ch and only have no phaseerrors on your correlationmeter, that´s no reason to mean if the phase is rigth ...

so may all users should try b.´s test on their systems to see if this is real ... it would be worst (like always

) ...

good luck

t.

ronaldmeij · Post by **ronaldmeij** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 5:19 am

No guys u dont get the point

Stop crying about the phase shit and start making music with what u have..

Always the same shit u complaine but u never get anny shit done....

The mixer works fine , there are no big phase problems stop crying start producing.

bendayan · Post by **bendayan** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 6:56 am

No "serious" phase problems?

A Mixer should have no phase problem if you intend to use it.
Once there is a slight shift in phasing, it degrades sonicaly. especialy in those high-mid freq.

I dont know about you, but already got alot of reports from people having the exact same problem. so its not system related.

I made music with bugmixer, and I also made music with a tutrle beach pinnacle back in the good old days.

If you want to do nice sketches for yourself thats fine, but if I invest hours and hours on finding the right mic,amp and studio to record and then the stupid pulsarmixer messes the sound up (and it will if it will have these errors), than thats not fine at all by me. and shouldnt be by anyone who uses it in a pro environment.

ronaldmeij · Post by **ronaldmeij** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 7:27 am

hmm i dont heave that problem !

Clear and simple ,works fine at my studio.
So why dont u sell your pulsar and stop crying....

buy rme or protools .... but stop crying !

Always complains everybody is complaining !

horrn · Post by **horrn** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 9:55 am

dear ronald

No guys u dont get the point

- NO! YOU stop shouting about things which are relevant! inform yourself!

Stop crying about the phase shit and start making music with what u have.

- i´m still making music, i´m doing a lot of music... and i´m live-engineer, earning my money with nothing else like this ... i do know about phasing problems!

Always the same shit u complaine but u never get anny shit done....

- fuck yourself ... sorry. but that´s pitty (first from you!)

The mixer works fine , there are no big phase problems stop crying start producing.

- you repeat yourself, if you have to do with this much stuff EVERY day you have to think about this problems which are still important...

that´s all

ronaldmeij · Post by **ronaldmeij** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 10:42 am

u mean in-relevant ??

no comment

Make no mistake and mark my words !

Stop crying and start producing !!!!!!!!!

and iam not starting to say fuck yourself , so keep it down .

Viese vuile kankermof !

I hope u can read dutch....

Michaelj · Post by **Michaelj** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 5:08 pm

make love not war !!!

maybe I am a fool.
or maybe I dont understand nothin about phase,

or music

well it works fine here.

my melody is tuned like a rock
and a new publishing deal is signed.
and music is coming out of my system.
and yes ,
I understand u all engineers. (I do)
But... well for me it works fine,
and today I dont work much like an engineer. now its only composing music
making melodys for artists and I love this system.

keep rockin

ronaldmeij · Post by **ronaldmeij** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 1:09 am

u are right dude !!!!

Iam a engineer but also producer and guys like that make me sick.

first the complaine that 2.04 is bat and now the have the fab 3.0 ! and the start all over again !

Make music and stop crying about tech talk..

at least the think its tecktalk , because the have phase errors and i dont .. so thats great hahaha

but u are right make music no war !

bendayan · Post by **bendayan** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 1:02 pm

Ok.

I've been a pulsar user since pulsar I was introduced.

You cant say I am not supportive of the platform. cant say I didnt way for 3 years to get bugmixer off my computer.

I bought 2 more pulsar II cards.

last thing you can say is that I bash it. had many complains, and hardly ever posted anything bad about CW or this platform.

but this time, I am damn angry.

Os3 has nice graphics. its a nice imporvement over 2.04a. it never stopped me from making music, as you guys say..

however, pulsarmixer is marketed and employed by CW as being "pro".

The worst problem of the pulsar are its mixers. and If I pay for something thats supposed to be pro, I find it appauling to see it has such BASIC problem and elemntary as PHASE problems.

any engineer will tell you, thats the most basic thing when you work with any mixer. Its OBVIOUS any mixer has no phase problems, unless its a toy with nice graphics

.

Like I said, you guys can do whatever you want. I intend to fight this until they :
1) tell us why it isnt possible to get a normal mixer out of pulsar.
2) fix the damn problem once and for all , thats been there since pulsar Os1 with their nice bugmixer.

end of story.

subhuman · Post by **subhuman** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 1:24 pm

Try emailing them directly

support@creamware.de

horrn · Post by **horrn** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 10:16 pm

hi ben...
i´ve tried this when i had time yesterday evening and you´re rigth ... not only ch13, at least (and that´s very shitty) the ch 3, 5, 7, 9, 10 (why then 10), 13, 15 on bigmixer do have this problems ... i only tried till ch16 but i´m sure it will go further. that´s very bad- if you´re are using this unreal stereochannels you have always this phasing. and you are right. phasing is a real problem! you shouldn´t have this.

anyway...

t.

Peezahj · Post by **Peezahj** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 10:23 pm

For anyone having problems with the new Pulsar Mixer, please contact me if you would like to sell it.

subhuman · Post by **subhuman** » Wed Oct 10, 2001 8:15 am

Here's Ingo/Creamware's official response to the matter, as posted in the Creamware Forum:

<i>
Hello all Pulsarians,

indeed in some cases not all channels of the DynamicMixer and PulsarMixer of the 3.0 version are always in absolute sync to each other, but a delay of a few single samples might happen on individual channel groups. We do not consider this as bug, neither as design flaw, because it does not matter in almost all normal mixing situations.

Here is some background information:

With the new mixers a particular number of channels is guaranteed to be in phase sync to each other. While all channels of the MicroMixer are in total phase sync, with the DynamicMixer only groups of 4 adjacent channels (mono or stereo) are guaranteed to be in phase sync (1-4, 5-8, 9-12, 13-16), plus - of course- the two internal mono channels of all stereo couples. With the more complex PulsarMixer groups of 3 adjacent channels (mono or stereo) are guaranteed to be in phase sync (1-3, 4-6, 7-9,10-12,13-15, 16-18, 19-21, 22-24), plus stereo ccouples.
Additionally all aux paths and couples of sub groups (Bus1/2, 3/4, 5/6, 7/8) are phase correlated.
A delay between these groups can happen, but it does not have to.
This design allows optimum performance even at 96 kHz.

Can this lead to problems with my mix?

Delays of a few samples are absolutely not audible. However, they can lead to phase cancelation and thus to a sound difference of correlated signals. The most important case of correlated signals are stereo pairs, but these are phase correlated with all mixers.
Another case is micing an instrument with multiple microphones. If a channel is delayed for a few samples, this equals moving a microphones for about one inch. In most situations even this would hardly be audible, if at all. Make sure to use channels of the same block (using stereo channels this can be 8/6 signals, see before) in such a situation and everything is fine. Or use the MicroMixer to premix mulitple correlated microphone source (e.g. a choir). This is normally no problem since such signals often require identical effect processing anyway.

What if I expect all channels of a professional mixer to be in total phase sync?

Guaranteeing all channels to be in total phase sync under all circumstances requires some additional DSP power (and is normally not required, see before). SInce the ongoing discussion shows that many users still seem to favour it to be this way, the next version of the mixers (included in the update patch later this month) will allow you to enable or disable total phase sync for ALL channels.

Ingo,
CreamWare
</i>

ronaldmeij · Post by **ronaldmeij** » Wed Oct 10, 2001 10:59 am

Yeah thats right..

bullshit about phase errors , works great for the mony spend....

u thing a neve lets say 3 years old is absolute phase sync.

Thankz Sub for the back-up

U all stop crying now and finish your song...

peripatitis · Post by **peripatitis** » Wed Oct 10, 2001 2:50 pm

well it seems to me ronaldmeij that bendayan
was right about the face problem so i don't see how can you feel justified by ingo's
reply.I haven't upgraded yet to ver.3.0 and i haven't got the propack so i can not judge for myself about the severeness or not of the problem not to mention that i am not particularly good in engineering but i can understand why an experienced engineer might have a problem with a so called propack having a mixer with phasing problems why can't you ?

peripatitis · Post by **peripatitis** » Wed Oct 10, 2001 2:53 pm

ghmm !!!!!!
that was phase problem but beeing such an
extremely fast typewriting guy i got it wrong