Mysterious Scope 4 related Freeze

takieda · Post by **takieda** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 12:45 pm

I'm using a Scope Professional, running Scope 4 on a SuperMicro P4DC6+ with 2 2.4Ghz Xeon chips installed all running on Windows XP SP2. I've got four items plugged into the onboard USB (mouse, keyboard, ShuttlePro and Midi Express 128). There are no IRQ conflicts with the Scope board (already fixed that problem), and this is a clean install of Windows (no drivers installed for the card in any other slots).

The problem is that the computer freezes, fairly randomly. Sometimes it will take a LONG time to freeze (half an hour to 2 or 3 days), and sometimes it will freeze within one minute of bootup time. The freezes seem more frequent and faster when Scope 4 is running. (i.e. if I manage to close Scope 4 before a freeze, the system may not freeze up, or may take a VERY long time to freeze). I don't recall the system freezing without Scope running, which is why I think it has something to do with the Scope.

Any questions or suggestions? (I can't get rid of USB, as I need it for at LEAST two items). Would it be better if I had a PCI USB expansion card?

Plato · Post by **Plato** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 1:12 pm

If you can live without USB 2.0 it might help....disable it in the BIOS

BingoTheClowno · Post by **BingoTheClowno** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 1:35 pm

What type of HAL do you have set up in Windows: ACPI Multiprocessor or Standard Multiprocessor?

Is HT enabled?
When is the crash happening?
Do you have an external MIDI keyboard hooked up?

[ This Message was edited by: BingoTheClowno on 2004-08-30 14:36 ]

takieda · Post by **takieda** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 2:20 pm

Plato: the motherboard only has USB 1.1, and unfortunately, I require it, as I have a ShuttlePro AND my Midi I/O plugged into USB.

Bingo: ACPI multiprocessor. it's required. and I've already set it up so that the Scope is not sharing any IRQs with anything else. Hyper Threading is not on, and I have no midi hooked up at the moment (aside from the midi I/O board plugged into USB). As to your other question, it's very random. It happens when I'm browsign the web. It happens when I'm playing music, etc. It just seems that the only times the system crashes are when Scope Platform 4.0 is running.

BingoTheClowno · Post by **BingoTheClowno** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 2:44 pm

You should get the bug check code and post it here. Make sure your system is not set to reboot automatically when a fatal error occurs.

Why is ACPI required?

takieda · Post by **takieda** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 2:52 pm

Bingo: Multiprocessor systems require ACPI in order to use multiple processors. And there's no rebooting, or bug check code... it simply freezes the system. When I reboot the computer, I get no error message at all.

[ This Message was edited by: takieda on 2004-08-30 15:53 ]

BingoTheClowno · Post by **BingoTheClowno** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 3:15 pm

On 2004-08-30 15:52, takieda wrote:
Bingo: Multiprocessor systems require ACPI in order to use multiple processors.
[ This Message was edited by: takieda on 2004-08-30 15:53 ]

Do you have the source of this information? In my oppinion that is not true.

See my system here Standard Multiprocessor on MS Server 2003:
http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... forum=5&16

Also here is how many processors you will get if you enable HT:
http://bingotheclowno.hostrocket.com/Im ... Voices.jpg

I would suggest disabling the ACPI. Also, when a freeze occurs, how long are you waiting before manualy rebooting the PC?

takieda · Post by **takieda** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 3:24 pm

What exactly is the purpose of disabling ACPI other than just allowing control over IRQs? considering everything that's in the system, and the fact that having ACPI enabled allows for up to 24 IRQs, it seems only logical to keep ACPI on (assuming you've gone through the trouble of relocating the cards until the Scope is free of IRQ conflicts - which I have done).

Also, According to Creamware Tech Support. IF you have a multi-processor system and intend to use both processors, then APIC ACPI must be enabled.

And about the wait. How long should I wait? I've waited upwards of 15 minutes (and over on odd occasions), without getting the system back.

*edit* I believe it's more specifically that if a MP system HAS APIC then it has to be enabled in order to use multiple processors. */edit*

[ This Message was edited by: takieda on 2004-08-30 16:31 ]

BingoTheClowno · Post by **BingoTheClowno** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 3:40 pm

Why to disable ACPI:

http://service.steinberg.de/webdoc_ps_i ... ormance_en

I don't believe that the APIC would be disabled if you disable ACPI.

[ This Message was edited by: BingoTheClowno on 2004-08-30 16:42 ]

dbmac · Post by **dbmac** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 4:53 pm

I think that Steinberg article is very old from the days when motherboards did not support ACPI properly - if your MBoard is less than two years old it's probably ok (I don't know the Supermicro).
Lots of DAWS are running fine on ACPI Windows XP installations. including lots of PlanetZ users.
From your description, I doubt the ACPI setup is your problem. Sorry, I don't have any solutions, but I would look elsewhere before changing XP to a "Standard" HAL - that could create a bunch of new problems if you don't do a cleam XP install.

/dave

lysergide · Post by **lysergide** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 7:03 pm

Sorry but i dont have anything to contribute to this discussion... However....

my system also suffered random freezes and blue screens.... and i have found a way to trigger the freezes...
(i.e to manually cause the system to freeze)...
this was my test when i was trying to get rid of the freezing.. maybe it may help u test if the system is still suffering from something or not...

what i'd do is go to control panel -> fonts.

there i would select all the fonts available (ctrl-a) and right click -> open them all..

what this does is open around 70 new windows in the time of around half a second... this thing would everytime get my system down (until recently when i fixed all problems)

maybe this could assist u in some way?

good day
lior

valis · Post by **valis** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 7:15 pm

I use the Supermicro P4DC6+ here with 2x1.8Ghz (need to upgrade to those 2.4's!!!) and I had no lockups with 2 pulsars installed *** as long as I wasn't using Cubase SX ***.

A few thoughts here for you:
1. always close SFP when not in use (can be a slight hassle when wanting to watch a random movie but I've noticed that on SMP systems it seems to ignore the 'reset board if idle' setting and always resets anyway thus losing contact with the SFP software). Feel free to go into the control panel for the Pulsar and uncheck 'reset board if idle' and see if you experience anything different.

2. Move your mouse & keyboard over to the ps/2 ports. This may fix your lockups entirely. It may not. It will certainly improve your midi JITTER.

3. You didn't mention what sequencer you use and how much RAM you have installed.

Post by **garyb** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 9:59 pm

usb 1.1 should be no problem. you might try eliminating acpi. acpi usually couses no problems,but some irqs are virtual which can make trouble with some setups. almost certainly, it is a setup issue....

*edit* ps2 ports for mouse and kb is a good idea....

[ This Message was edited by: garyb on 2004-08-30 23:00 ]

valis · Post by **valis** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 2:04 am

I don't think ACPI is the culprit although anything is possible. Recall I've been using the same motherboard for 2 years and the only application I ever get lockups from is Cubase SX/Nuendo (v's 1 & 2).

However something I should add, I really recommend that HT be disabled if it is enabled. There are quite a few people here who experience frequent lockups with SFP/Creamware and HT being enabled, especially in conjunction with Creamware's midi implementation. I only enabled HT when I first built this PC 2 years ago (Wow lookie in task manager! 4 processors!) and haven't bothered using it since. The HT implementation isn't very good during this era--it has been improved quite a lot in the 2 cores that have come since. I would assume you're also using Prestonia cores (2.4Ghz w/ 400mhz fsb), which were the first cores to have HT enabled (it was disabled in the p4 version of the same core). In the prestonia core you can expect -40% to +10% change in performance depending on whether your app is coded in such a way as to work well with HT. This means that even if HT isn't the culprit you're really best disabling it.

BingoTheClowno · Post by **BingoTheClowno** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 9:31 am

You should try Windows 2003 Server, no lockups whatshowever, even with MIDI clock data, with HT enabled.

But, yes, definitely PS2 mouse/keyboard instead of USB would help (I had problems too with Windows 2000 Pro). Disabling some services will help too, also some performance logging.

[ This Message was edited by: BingoTheClowno on 2004-08-31 10:34 ]

valis · Post by **valis** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 4:44 pm

I probably buried this too far in the above post:
The HT implementation on the Prestonia cores isn't worth turning on.

takieda · Post by **takieda** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 10:15 am

Sorry for the haitus there guys... I've been on an impromptu vacation (yay), and now that my brain is in better working order, I'll be getting back to work on the studio. I have a bit of catching up to do on these forums, I'll get to everyone's replies ASAP.
Once again, thanks for all the help guys,
-Tak