Timeworks rev + pci overflow

Rogurt · Post by **Rogurt** » Sat Jul 31, 2004 3:30 pm

Yes - we are really lucky. And I really love that verb and for 100 Bucks! Man!
Maybe I dind´t really succeed in pointing out what I meant. Looking at the pro tools platform I recognize that the money for expensive high quality plugs IS going to be paid. As I said you can also get quite good plugs for free. So there has to be something different that makes people buy the plugs. And that´s the point where I think that those "professionals" I mentioned surely want ecxellent quality plugs but it´s the workflow that´s the most important thing. Who doesnt have an old piece of equipment that could be replaced by something better? But since you really know that thing by heart and you achive your musical aims with that thing in near lightspeed you wouldn´t want to give it away. And therefore I´d like to have a plug that sounds fine and which doesn´t make me think of how to twirl and cheat and dual PC-stuff to integrate it into an otherwise perfect workflow.

But again: the Verb IS superb and the price is too. I just tend to think about things REALLY in detail

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sat Jul 31, 2004 7:40 pm

On 2004-07-31 16:30, Rogurt wrote:
Maybe I dind´t really succeed in pointing out what I meant...

as far as I'm concerned you did succeed - and I respect your preferences of system setup - it's your workplace

...So there has to be something different that makes people buy the plugs.
...
But again: the Verb IS superb and the price is too. I just tend to think about things REALLY in detail

Ok, but now extend the viewing angle...

and let's leave out obvious things like quality and reliability for simplicity.

point 1: price of gear and plugs doesn't matter (much) in economic context - it's an investment and part of the tax balance

point 2: an expensive part of the studio prospects greater exclusivity and separation from the 'crowd'

point 3: a certain reputation - no sales without image. People buy on emotion, not facts, even if they consider themselves reasonable.

Under these premissions Creamware's original slogan (when Scope was released) 'Protools for everyone...' was bound to fail in a certain market segment.

They have my full respect for making such a marvellous system available for such an affordable price and I've mentioned it numerous times that they strongly remind at Apple how it once was.

Since we all know (at least those a little longer in this business) what became of that Cupertino startup - don't pray for CWA's future, but for your wallets

Appearantly high tech customers have turned into a flock of sheep - (almost) everyone complains about the M$Soft monopoly, but noone leaves their stuff where it belongs - on the shelves, until quality assurance works at least to a minimal degree.
I don't want to extend the scope even further (already hijacking the thread), but this example is much more impressive than a single plugin - and it clearly shows the way we're heading, if the good stuff is ignored further.

cheers, Tom

Rogurt · Post by **Rogurt** » Sun Aug 01, 2004 6:00 am

>>when Scope was released) 'Protools for everyone...'
Yes I remeber too.
I think the question of further development of plugs like that timeworks verbs is exemplary for the SFP platform. It has highest potential but it somehow aims too much at the mid-end user. SFP could be THE studio standart for portability, scalability in price and integration in post-pro (sony 9-pin etc) and realtime studio setups.
But somehow it doesn´t really worked out yet. I feel that little things could do a lot like featuring working studio setups with total control HUIs (like Macki HUI, Huston...) on the CW website. Or when your taking a pre-production to a studio to have the possibility for using your plugs in the new environment for some days for a little fee or thelike. Also there are huge amounts of synths out there but nothing like those sound services having provided us with sounds for our productions in the past (for my DX7 etc.). I found myself dreaming to contact Alfonso to have him program sounds for a special production. I really do like the way he builds sounds. (Yes: it´s best to program your sounds on your own etc. but some think that it´s the cake that makes the trick not where you buyed the salt from...)

Warp 69 just because I´m curious:
How long did development of one algo take and how long do you think would optimization take. I do not have a clue of such things...

Warp69 · Post by **Warp69** » Fri Aug 06, 2004 2:57 pm

Hey,

Sorry for the late response - I have been on vacation.

@Rogurt :

I totally agree with your point regarding that SFP could be THE studio platform. I really dont know how long it takes to develop a algorithm, since I do alot of other things at the same time, but I would imagine it would take 3 months to optimize the algorithm. I simply dont have the money for such projects (sharc/x86 programmers). I thought in the begining that I could make it as a free update to my customers if I sold 200+, but Im REALLY far from that number, infact there's no point in releasing more algorithms. I imagine that 0.01% of all the SFP customers are interested in quality, all the others are happy with the quality supplied by VST.

@Astroman :

You're completely right (as allways).

@Ganool :

Sorry, I have too. But if you ain't happy with the quality of the plug, then I might release the heavy version

@Cannonball :

Unfortunately, 99% are not interested in quality, but in quantity. Even non-free updates would not be enough for the optimization.

Cheers

dbmac · Post by **dbmac** » Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:29 pm

Well that's sure a drag if you can't sell more than 200 reverbs of that quality for only $100. I don't know what that says about the Scope users community, but it sure feels like bad news. I fear for the future.

/dave

Warp69 · Post by **Warp69** » Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:37 pm

Hey dbmac

I would be more than happy to just sell 200.......... You wouldn't like to hear the real number.

cheers

AndreD · Post by **AndreD** » Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:51 pm

maybe, it´s time for some reviews in recording-magazines?
warp, your work is a big step for the whole platform!
is it possible, to run one instance on a luna2 by the way?

best,
andre

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: AndreD on 2004-08-06 16:53 ]</font>

Ganool · Post by **Ganool** » Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:52 pm

..or make CW promote plugs on their page? It's a bit weird that they don't do this automatically when a 3rd party developer release something for the platform.

Carl.

dbmac · Post by **dbmac** » Fri Aug 06, 2004 4:56 pm

Well I figured the rave reviews Warp69 was getting in this forum would have been enough to generate those kind of sales. Over 6000 views of the Classic plate announcement. Are we few, or just, uh, frugal?

/dave

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Fri Aug 06, 2004 5:16 pm

On 2004-08-06 16:29, dbmac wrote:
...I don't know what that says about the Scope users community, but it sure feels like bad news. I fear for the future.

yeah, and if it was up to me that 'community' would never ever get a DP kit for free - they simply don't deserve it...

it won't improve 3rd party situation at all, it's just a marketing gag to fire up sales with an 'invaluable extra'

sorry for the rant, but I couldn't help

Warp69, I'm really

(sidenote: registration delays seem to be related to a not fully automated shop system - once informed, they dealt with this in merely some hours)

I hope you'll still release at least the Ambient algorithm, even in it's current stage...

cheers, Tom

cannonball · Post by **cannonball** » Fri Aug 06, 2004 6:28 pm

hey Warp you have been on vacation?
with all the work you have to do?

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Fri Aug 06, 2004 7:30 pm

Monty Python couldn't have said it better...

imho the only option to call this 'work' gain would be to coop with Fairlight, find some flashy slogans, rise the price to 799 and make a 50/50 share with them

cheers, Tom

Warp69 · Post by **Warp69** » Sat Aug 07, 2004 9:37 am

Hey,

@astroman :

I will release both the ambience algorithm and the chorusdelay thing (only availble for p100 customers - free ofcourse). After that I'll have to rethink my next moves. I was thinking about doing a free device for every reverb, like real ADSR/Gated delay with rolling comb filters and a special flanger for the ambience. But that and other reverb algorithms is far from sure, unfortunately. I have to admit that Im very surprised (well shocked) by the lack of interest in high quality plug-ins.

@AndreD :

Regarding magazines : Might be a good idea, but I wont like too much attention.
Unfortunately I dont have access to a Luna board, so I dont know. But some of the versions should be usable.

@Ganool :

I have send webtext and pictures to Creamware so now I just wait. There has been alot of news on their website so I imagine that the p100 will be mentioned very soon.

Cheers

Ganool · Post by **Ganool** » Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:14 am

I completely understand your situation, but as some has suggested, there should be ways to improve the sales.

As AndreD said, reviews/news flashes in music magazines, is a bulletproof way of getting good attention.

Personally, I believe your idea of releasing a bonus plug to the buyers is an excellent idea. The chorus-effect made me grab the p100, and after listening to the a100 I'm definately going to grab that one as well.

As I said, I perfectly understand your situation, but apart from that I and many with me would be very sad if you left the platform. Don't be too hasty. Try the magazines. Make a professional pressrelease and see what happens. Why don't you release the 'light' versions for a cheaper price? Oh... I could go on forever...

Carl.

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Sat Aug 07, 2004 11:00 am

That's a bit of a problem on the platform: We want t0p gear but we don't want it to draw too much attention. If the platform would go high profile, sales would evolve along... but then the 'underdog' character (SFP is still a bit extraordinary, not?) would vanish IMO. And I like that 'no one can do what is possible here' idea, it's part of the fun for me...

dbmac · Post by **dbmac** » Sat Aug 07, 2004 11:22 am

I agree at0mic, the "secret weapon" factor of Scope appeals to me. If we could get the 1000's of card owners that populate this group to patronize the developers that make this platform so special, we could enhance our survivability and keep it "in house".

/dave

Mr Arkadin · Post by **Mr Arkadin** » Sat Aug 07, 2004 1:21 pm

How about having a 50% discount bug in the STW shop to drum up sales

i haven't got P-100 yet (i am DAWles for a couple more weeks yet), but as soon as i get my DAW back i will be demoing this. At the current exchange rate this is about £53, come on, barely a night out on the town.

Sad to say though that even space f's fantastic Echo3 at 60 Euros didn't achieve huge sales i believe, so i don't know what the answer is.

Mr A

bbrian · Post by **bbrian** » Sat Aug 07, 2004 4:20 pm

Yes the lack of interest is very sad

I'm just a lowly struggling student and I find a way to purchase these verbs, echo3, and other great plugins made by 3rd party developers. How can anyone who is semi-pro, pro, or just very serious audio enthusiast not pick up these devices at such already low prices? Hopefully these will appear on CWAs main webpage, I also thing maybe submitting the P100 or other plugs to Sound On Sound could bring in some new buyers, who probably think the best verbs are only convolution or Classicverb on the Powercore. Or maybe a TV ad campaign during the upcoming Olympic games?? Haha.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sat Aug 07, 2004 4:35 pm

let me see it this way:
if I post an anti-globalisation statement in the off-topic section of some music forum, I'll probably get 100 supportive posts.
90 of the posters wouldn't hesitate to buy a Chinese mic - you know what kind of mic I have in mind

Go figure yourself... imho it's a sign of the times, and a bad one btw.

99 Euro can be a lot of money in certain situations, not doubt.
In my personal one it would currently be a new pair of climbing shoes - or twice the amount for a new safety rope. I'll delay the aquisition and so can afford one or two new plugs.

While the example may be pretty exotic (important for me, though) - the situation itself isn't at all.
You CAN decide by purchase - not all at once of course

in what direction the developement of the Scope platform goes.
Otherwise it will be dead sooner than expected with it's low price branch and be resurrected in the high end realm.

cheers, Tom

Post by **garyb** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 11:45 pm

true.
i have chinese and a BLUE mic so i know what you're saying is true. we really do need to support these developers at least a little more(and not just the same old guys doing the supporting)...i WANT many of these devices including the verb...just need to free some money...