Pulsar2 analogue outputs not accurate ?

RoonSmits · Post by **RoonSmits** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 2:33 pm

Hi,

I was wondering what the cause of my observation is. Let me explain:

Today I was testing the accoustics of my newly installed home-studio.
I started SFP4 + Logic 5.51 and ajusted some settings to start recording. I connected my DVD player's output to the Pulsar2 SP/DIF source and started recording a CD, Kate Bush' Wuthering Heighs.

I listened the recording at various volumes and noticed some differences between the original and the recording I just made, while both being played back through the same amp and speakers, (I doulbe checked this by listening through my active monitors, same story), I missed the spaciousness and clarity of Kate's voice. I was able to get the recording's sound upto the original, by using the PEQ4S and sapply a high shelf at 3100Hz, boost it's volume with 4db and then another at 6600Hz to add some 0.9db. But the tails of the reverbs can't be corrected and are gone/cut of forever.

I tested this more indepth by converting the CD track with Wavelab4 while it was read from my Plextor burner. And this file was just as pristine as the original CD.

What have I done wrong or how can there be such a difference ?

Thanks in advance
Ronald

[ This Message was edited by: RoonSmits on 2004-06-20 16:53 ]

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 4:17 pm

On 2004-06-20 15:33, RoonSmits wrote:
... I tested this more indepth by converting the CD track with Wavelab4 while it was read from my Plextor burner. And this file was just as pristine as the original CD.
...

I assume you ripped it off the Plextor, which is generally considered one of the best for this task.

Imho you observed the jitter of the digital transfer in your original recording.
SFP has to slave to the DVD drive and I wouldn't hold my breath on the clock of such a unit

same would apply if the DVD player did run 'free' of sync - a CD would refuse to output to 'master' equipment, but possible your DVD player tried it's best.
My Korg mixer isn't bad on this non-sync trick, too

It would be easier if it just refused to operate, but instead it prefers to output muddy sound...

on the other hand if you played back the ripped file flawlessly through the same analog outs those can't be faulty.

my 2 cent, Tom

[ This Message was edited by: astroman on 2004-06-20 17:20 ]

[ This Message was edited by: astroman on 2004-06-20 17:26 ]

valis · Post by **valis** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 4:17 pm

Was the master/slave clock set properly? I would tend to think you would hear obvious crackling if not but you never know...

Try inserting the Phasefix tool in SFP just after the spdif input (and before anything else). Sometimes I've noticed my ADAT ports will be out of phase and simply inserting this tool (without adjustment) somehow forces it to fix itself. Why this is I have no idea.

[ This Message was edited by: valis on 2004-06-20 17:18 ]

RoonSmits · Post by **RoonSmits** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 4:51 pm

Thanks both for your answers

Indeed, the Plextor drives are superb for audio extraction. But this was actualy more at test for the AD/DA converters I think.
I wanted to know what would happen with any outboard sound when it enters the system (acoustic guitar, voice channel, etc).

In regards of the master/slave issue, I tried both when the CW system was master all kind of crackles and noises appeard, but hen the DVD player acted sas master and the CW system as slave these disapeared. What makes alot of sense ofcourse.

I'll try the phasefix tool tomorrow and see what will happen. And I will also test with the analogue outputs of the Plextor and those of the DVD player. I can also rip the Yamaha DVD player from my living room, but I guess the wife will freak out. Although that Yamaha DVD player is near high-end quality, according to tests done by many hifi magazines

Maybe I'll just do that.

Ronald

_________________
P-IV 3Ghz pc/Pulsar II/Luna II+ADAT exp./2xbreakout box/Logic 5.5.1/Logic Control/Yamaha CS1x/Emu E6400Ultra/Waldorf Rack Attack/Nord Rack2

Dust collectors of the month: Casio CZ101/Korg poly800/Korg DW6000

[ This Message was edited by: RoonSmits on 2005-09-17 01:01 ]

alfonso · Post by **alfonso** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:44 pm

I think that the recording tool's audio engine affects the sound...different daws are proven to sound different.

You should try to record on the recording input of your sts sampler or in VDAT and then you will have a better test for the card.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 6:12 pm

oh, I overlooked something... in your original setup you transfered digital audio data from a (probably 'regular') DVD player.
That is something those drives aren't intended for if you have quality in mind

Your Yamaha from the living room might perform better, but I agree on the concerns regarding your wife...

That 'test' is pretty useless as the data from the drive is NOT error free, in fact it may even have a horrible error correction - opposed to the Plextor, which shines in this domain.

I've once tried something similiar to determine if the Pulsar converters offer an advantage for CD output of a Philips player (the old 650 'poor man's high end').
For my ears the difference to the analog record was neglectible, if present at all.

I frequently record vinyls via Pulsar and some of these records sound better than their CD versions - specially if the CDs are cheapo releases from the early days of the digital age.

cheers, Tom
ps: your CZ 101 dustcollector is a real pain to read for me - since it's still lacking in my collection - but I'm a patient hunter...

RoonSmits · Post by **RoonSmits** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:05 am

Hi guys,

I just re-did the whole recording test:
After making a promise to the wife, I connected my Yamaha DVD-S540 to the Pulsar2 Classic via analogue and optical SP/DIF and also via coaxial SP/DIF to my PowerSampler (all at the same time using the three Yammy outputs), this was recorded straight into Logic. The CW system locked as slave to the optical SP/DIF at 44.1KHz.

The two digital signals were perfect in means of levels, but the analogue was a tad on the high side, Logic complained about 6 contigious clipped samples (I used it, since it wasn't audible for me anyway) and the Plextor rip via IDE was identical to the two digital recordings (how do those plextor people do that anyway ?).

There were some minor differences analogue/digital, but I guess you need dog ears to tell the difference if listening with your eyes closed. This again prooved that the first test I did with the consumer Sony DVD player was heavilly coloured by it's "living-room quality A/D converters". The test I did with the Yamaha today, just prooved that the Pulsar A/Ds aren't too bad at all.

I wanted to do the same in Wavelab4 to see if the audio engines differ (thanks Alfonso for pointing this out, I forgot this) but my PowerSampler keeps generating this weird error:

A communications error with PowerSampler (board2) has occured. This problem can normally be corrected by reloading the DSPs. Do you want to try that ?

Yes/No

this ofcourse doesn't help ;-( I'll see if I can re-do this in Wavelab and or @ 24bits . . . someday. If anyone knows how to ged rid of this error, please let me know.

Thanks for listening.
Ronald

PS: Tom, maybe who knows . . . but in the mean time:
http://www.studio-sl19.com/public/music ... CF2251.jpg and

http://www.studio-sl19.com/public/music ... CF2252.jpg

PS2: anyone interested in the test files (Pulsar2 project, Logic project + wave files) ?
I can burn them on a CD for you and I have also put them on my website as a hefty 192Mb download: http://www.studio-sl19.com/public/music ... 16bits.zip

_________________
P-IV 3Ghz/Asus P4C800dlx/2Gb RAM/Asus nVidia FX5700vga/2x17" Iiyama LCD/20+120Gb Maxtor/Pulsar II/PowerSampler/Luna II/2xbreakout box/Logic 5.5.1/Logic Control/Yamaha CS1x.

Dust collectors of the month: Casio CZ101/Korg poly800/Korg DW6000

[ This Message was edited by: RoonSmits on 2004-06-21 06:11 ]

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:20 pm

tnx Roon

filed the pics - such a cute and stylish box

valis · Post by **valis** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 8:04 am

Nice1

RoonSmits · Post by **RoonSmits** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:54 pm

On 2004-06-22 19:20, astroman wrote:
tnx Roon filed the pics - such a cute and stylish box

On 2004-06-23 09:04, valis wrote:
Nice1

Thanks,

yeah, this is the limited edition. Check out the additional logo at the bottom. This one is equipped with a Pentium III processor

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 5:22 pm

I noticed it, ahead of it's time

btw the CZ101 was usually suggested as a midi input device in the very early days of Mac music. For roughly $400 it was considered the most affordable and space effective solution.
Now they rarely sell for less on eBay...

cheers, Tom

[ This Message was edited by: astroman on 2004-06-23 18:23 ]